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Old 04-26-2011, 12:08 PM   #1
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Default Tobi is Kagami Uchiha... well maybe

As you can guess my theory is that Tobi is really Kagami Uchiha. I had refrained from posting this theory because there is no hard evidence that he really is and all evidence I provide is speculation at best. Since there was a theory about shishu being tobi with little proof kagami would not be a huge stretch.

As we all know Kagami was one of danzo and the 3rd hokage's teammates. He is the right age to be a village elder and would have knowledge of most things happening in konoha. Chapter 481 on the cover it says danzo remembers vying with his friends for hokage. All of characters on that page were elders besides kagami and the dead akimichi (narutowiki says he is dead take that as what it is could be wrong). Perhaps that day when both he and danzo were passed over for hokage kagami became upset that for the 3rd time the uchiha had been looked over as a candidate to be hokage. It seems that since that day danzo began working in the shadows to gain power I do not think it would be that much of a stretch to think that Kagami would as well. Kagami I believe was a konoha elder when he was alive homura and komura both are and they were all in the same team. There have been a couple instances where Tobi has had information only an elder would have. The main example is when kushina was giving birth to naruto. Only the third hokage and the elders knew the location of the birthplace. I seriously doubt the third or elders would knowingly share information with an enemy. Even danzo would not leak info since he wanted to protect the nine-tails as a powerful weapon of Konoha, however if tobi was an elder (at the time) he would have knowledge of the location as well as any barriers and guards. The other time is when Tobi is explaining the uchiha massacre. Of course he would have first hand knowledge of massacre since he was part of it, but how would tobi know that the 3rd was the only one of the elders to try diplomacy with the uchiha tho?

There are few more times when Tobi is discussing things that he let on he might not be Madara besides the many examples people have mentioned in other theory discussions about him speaking in the third person. When Tobi is talking to konan about his battle. with the 1st hokage is another example. Chapter 510 pg 12. Tobi does not deny that madara lost to 1st hokage or died in the battle only that it was to access the 1st powers and that victor is the one who could see the future. Madara probably realized before fighting the 1st hokage that even if he won he could not take on the whole village of konoha since he didn't have support of other uchiha. The only way he could would be to get the powers of the sage of the six paths. Since the real madara had ms and ems he read the tablet learning how to gain the sages powers. Madara knew he might not win the battle with the 1st, but needed senju powers. Madara most likely believed that sooner or later the uchiha would rebel against the senju like he did. He might have planned on an uchiha eventually taking his EMS or body which still had part of his soul in them with the senju powers. His soul eventually taking control over whoever choose to take that risk. Of course I have no proof of it.

Much of my thinking for thinking it could be kagami is when tobi is commenting on the sasuke/danzo fight. http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/480/p-9 . He is speaking of shishu eye in an inner monologue so there is no reason to think that he would speak in the 3rd person within his own head. Also in that fight tobi didn't seem suprised that Danzo had an armful of sharigan but only that he had the 1st hokage's dna and remarks in disgust that danzo must have kept in contact with orochimaru. Perhaps oro helped kagami transfer the EMS or some part of madara into himself. As we have seen kabuto has a knowledge of the sage of the six paths which he got from orochimaru, and he also commented how tobi was going by madara these days. Perhaps oro shared with kabuto the true identity of tobi since he was part of the experiement which changed kagami to tobi (real long shot I know) but as we have seen with oro if u have a strong chakra it can begin taking over someone's body. It just seems to me that danzo and tobi are too similar in their idea of uniting the the ninja world through power to have not known one another and influenced each other.

I know this theory is a bit of a stretch and unorganized. I plan on editing after work, but would appreciate any opinions or thoughts.

Addition- maybe kagami was obito's father and snapped when a non uchiha stole his son's eye and started an epic journey to unite the world. Then took on the name tobi in honor of his son hahaha jk.
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:44 PM   #2
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Since there was a theory about shishu being tobi with little proof kagami would not be a huge stretch.
There's actually a disgusting amount of proof surrounding the Shisui theory (thanks to J4Ks), while this is pretty much a fanfic.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:17 PM   #3
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That's a decent theory, and wam he does have a point about "Tobi" speaking of Shisui in the 3rd person lol.

However while "Tobi" could very well be someone else, I think Kishi just wants us to think it's everyone but Madara; he still wants people to doubt his presence.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:08 PM   #4
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I didn't mean there wasn't any proof that tobi wasn't shisui @wambam I think tobi very well might shisui. I just meant there wasnt tons of proof but some with some very educated guesses. I know kagami is much more far fetched, but it was a theory that I made without tons of proof much like the theory of shisui where people could give me there opinion or just rip it to shreds (like it probably should be since I was just guessig how some things in the past played out) but the theory about shisui got some proof by JK4s not the original author.

My main point was just I doubted it was shisui with so few other uchiha I took a guess at kagami. I believe Tobi had some association with Oro before he showed himself as tobi because kabuto knows his true self. Also that I believed it had to be someone high up within Konoha to know about the location of birthplace whether that kagami or shisui or whoever tobi/madara is.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:20 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Tysis View Post
That's a decent theory, and wam he does have a point about "Tobi" speaking of Shisui in the 3rd person lol.
If he goes through the trouble of wearing a mask 24/7 to conceal his identity, I don't think he would slip up and say, "Danzo give me my.... uhhhh Shisui's* eye." It shouldn't be too difficult for him to act like he's not the person who's identity he's trying to hide.

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However while "Tobi" could very well be someone else, I think Kishi just wants us to think it's everyone but Madara; he still wants people to doubt his presence.
Then what's the point of the mask? If he really is Madara then wearing the mask is basically like saying, "HAHA I tricked the audience which I'm not supposed to be aware of into thinking that I'm someone else." Unless of course he's ugly and is self-conscious, but Uchiha's have proven to be pretty good lookin. No homo.

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I didn't mean there wasn't any proof that tobi wasn't shisui @wambam I think tobi very well might shisui. I just meant there wasnt tons of proof but some with some very educated guesses. I know kagami is much more far fetched, but it was a theory that I made without tons of proof much like the theory of shisui where people could give me there opinion or just rip it to shreds (like it probably should be since I was just guessig how some things in the past played out) but the theory about shisui got some proof by JK4s not the original author.
Actually JK4s is the original author. He made a thread before mine that was way more in-depth and had a ton of evidence. I didn't see it when I searched for a Shisui theory, so I thought mine was original when I read it. His theory however does have a ton of proof (link is in my thread), and there was even more proof that was established as the thread continued.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by wambam View Post
...I don't think he would slip up and say, "Danzo give me my.... uhhhh Shisui's* eye." It shouldn't be too difficult for him to act like he's not the person who's identity he's trying to hide.
Well I think Bagel and myself were referring to when he said it in his head, meaning no one would hear him so why not say "I want my eye when Sasuke kills Danzo," unless he's really saying "HAHA I tricked the audience which I'm not supposed to be aware of into thinking that I'm someone else."

(See what I did there? XD) lol but seriously see here:

( Click to show/hide )


He's talking in his head, so if he really is Shisui, why refer to himself in the 3rd person? Unless he's just so hyped up on his own awesomeness lol, which is a possibility.

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Then what's the point of the mask? ...Unless of course he's ugly and is self-conscious, but Uchiha's have proven to be pretty good lookin. No homo.
Yea I can't explain the mask lol. I'm thinking what someone else said about part of his body being constructed from Zetsu (which also explains why he views himself as incomplete) makes his face kinda jacked via white zetsu-y material or somethin. Not to mention we've seen wrinkles on his face, so he's gotta be older than however old Shisui was.

FYI I'm not knocking on the Shisui theory, it's great, I'm just saying I think it's really Madara so I'll be playing the role of devil's advocate just for the cause lol.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:14 PM   #7
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1st up big up 2 MADARA/TOBI a.k.a THE MASKED MAN who been setting the forums on fire since his murder the whole shinobi world entrance on the battlefield. KAGMI UCHIHA is a good candidate as well, the mysterious UCHIHA who has made a 1 time appearance so far. Still like stated we have not 2 much info on him, still sold on the SHISUI theory. whoever it is or maybe seems MADARA soul is in control.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tysis View Post
Well I think Bagel and myself were referring to when he said it in his head, meaning no one would hear him so why not say "I want my eye when Sasuke kills Danzo," unless he's really saying "HAHA I tricked the audience which I'm not supposed to be aware of into thinking that I'm someone else."

(See what I did there? XD) lol but seriously see here:

( Click to show/hide )


He's talking in his head, so if he really is Shisui, why refer to himself in the 3rd person? Unless he's just so hyped up on his own awesomeness lol, which is a possibility.
I raised this point in another thread as well. This is not the only example where Madara shouldn't have referred to himself in third person

http://forums.saiyanisland.com/showthread.php?t=36612

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysis View Post
Yea I can't explain the mask lol. I'm thinking what someone else said about part of his body being constructed from Zetsu (which also explains why he views himself as incomplete) makes his face kinda jacked via white zetsu-y material or somethin. Not to mention we've seen wrinkles on his face, so he's gotta be older than however old Shisui was.

FYI I'm not knocking on the Shisui theory, it's great, I'm just saying I think it's really Madara so I'll be playing the role of devil's advocate just for the cause lol.
He removed the mask when he met Sasuke (almost, he was struck with Amaterasu). Why would he risk showing his true identity to a person which he does not know if he will be loyal or not, and can use that information to his advantage?

The mask can simply be bad fashion sense. We know that Kakashi wears one, Shino is also pretty covered. My point is, the overwhelming evidence easily disregards the not so big discrepancy of a mask.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysis View Post
Well I think Bagel and myself were referring to when he said it in his head, meaning no one would hear him so why not say "I want my eye when Sasuke kills Danzo," unless he's really saying "HAHA I tricked the audience which I'm not supposed to be aware of into thinking that I'm someone else."

(See what I did there? XD) lol but seriously see here:

( Click to show/hide )


He's talking in his head, so if he really is Shisui, why refer to himself in the 3rd person? Unless he's just so hyped up on his own awesomeness lol, which is a possibility.
Ahaha but yo if Kishi were to have him say "my eye," it would ruin the suspense that I think he's trying to build, but more importantly as far as my theory is concerned, he is Madara inside Shisui's body, so referring to Shisui as someone else is expected.
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:11 PM   #10
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Had SAUSUKE ever even seen SHISUI face before?? I figure he knew the name since the KONOHA police force was accusing his brother of murdering the guy. Cause if he didn't then showing his face 2 SASUKE (assuming MADARA is SHISUI) would not matter. He would just know he was a UCHIHA clan survivor.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by bertjor View Post
He removed the mask when he met Sasuke (almost, he was struck with Amaterasu). Why would he risk showing his true identity to a person which he does not know if he will be loyal or not, and can use that information to his advantage?
I don't see why that would matter, Sasuke didn't even know who Madara was until Itachi informed him, there's no way he would have known some old guy by seeing just his face. So Sasuke still would have just been taking "Tobi's" word for it regardless.

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The mask can simply be bad fashion sense. We know that Kakashi wears one, Shino is also pretty covered. My point is, the overwhelming evidence easily disregards the not so big discrepancy of a mask.
This is true.

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Originally Posted by wambam View Post
Ahaha but yo if Kishi were to have him say "my eye," it would ruin the suspense that I think he's trying to build, but more importantly as far as my theory is concerned, he is Madara inside Shisui's body, so referring to Shisui as someone else is expected.
Oh I see, than yea the Shisui thing still makes sense.

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Originally Posted by pow View Post
Had SAUSUKE ever even seen SHISUI face before?? I figure he knew the name since the KONOHA police force was accusing his brother of murdering the guy. Cause if he didn't then showing his face 2 SASUKE (assuming MADARA is SHISUI) would not matter. He would just know he was a UCHIHA clan survivor.
Exactly, it wouldn't really matter one way or the other if Sasuke had seen his face; he wouldn't have known who he was other than who Madara claimed to be.
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:49 AM   #12
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As you can guess my theory is that Tobi is really Kagami Uchiha.
( Click to show/hide )
I had refrained from posting this theory because there is no hard evidence that he really is and all evidence I provide is speculation at best. Since there was a theory about shishu being tobi with little proof kagami would not be a huge stretch.

As we all know Kagami was one of danzo and the 3rd hokage's teammates. He is the right age to be a village elder and would have knowledge of most things happening in konoha. Chapter 481 on the cover it says danzo remembers vying with his friends for hokage. All of characters on that page were elders besides kagami and the dead akimichi (narutowiki says he is dead take that as what it is could be wrong). Perhaps that day when both he and danzo were passed over for hokage kagami became upset that for the 3rd time the uchiha had been looked over as a candidate to be hokage. It seems that since that day danzo began working in the shadows to gain power I do not think it would be that much of a stretch to think that Kagami would as well. Kagami I believe was a konoha elder when he was alive homura and komura both are and they were all in the same team. There have been a couple instances where Tobi has had information only an elder would have. The main example is when kushina was giving birth to naruto. Only the third hokage and the elders knew the location of the birthplace. I seriously doubt the third or elders would knowingly share information with an enemy. Even danzo would not leak info since he wanted to protect the nine-tails as a powerful weapon of Konoha, however if tobi was an elder (at the time) he would have knowledge of the location as well as any barriers and guards. The other time is when Tobi is explaining the uchiha massacre. Of course he would have first hand knowledge of massacre since he was part of it, but how would tobi know that the 3rd was the only one of the elders to try diplomacy with the uchiha tho?

There are few more times when Tobi is discussing things that he let on he might not be Madara besides the many examples people have mentioned in other theory discussions about him speaking in the third person. When Tobi is talking to konan about his battle. with the 1st hokage is another example. Chapter 510 pg 12. Tobi does not deny that madara lost to 1st hokage or died in the battle only that it was to access the 1st powers and that victor is the one who could see the future. Madara probably realized before fighting the 1st hokage that even if he won he could not take on the whole village of konoha since he didn't have support of other uchiha. The only way he could would be to get the powers of the sage of the six paths. Since the real madara had ms and ems he read the tablet learning how to gain the sages powers. Madara knew he might not win the battle with the 1st, but needed senju powers. Madara most likely believed that sooner or later the uchiha would rebel against the senju like he did. He might have planned on an uchiha eventually taking his EMS or body which still had part of his soul in them with the senju powers. His soul eventually taking control over whoever choose to take that risk. Of course I have no proof of it.

Much of my thinking for thinking it could be kagami is when tobi is commenting on the sasuke/danzo fight. http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/480/p-9 . He is speaking of shishu eye in an inner monologue so there is no reason to think that he would speak in the 3rd person within his own head. Also in that fight tobi didn't seem suprised that Danzo had an armful of sharigan but only that he had the 1st hokage's dna and remarks in disgust that danzo must have kept in contact with orochimaru. Perhaps oro helped kagami transfer the EMS or some part of madara into himself. As we have seen kabuto has a knowledge of the sage of the six paths which he got from orochimaru, and he also commented how tobi was going by madara these days. Perhaps oro shared with kabuto the true identity of tobi since he was part of the experiement which changed kagami to tobi (real long shot I know) but as we have seen with oro if u have a strong chakra it can begin taking over someone's body. It just seems to me that danzo and tobi are too similar in their idea of uniting the the ninja world through power to have not known one another and influenced each other.

I know this theory is a bit of a stretch and unorganized. I plan on editing after work, but would appreciate any opinions or thoughts.

Addition- maybe kagami was obito's father and snapped when a non uchiha stole his son's eye and started an epic journey to unite the world. Then took on the name tobi in honor of his son hahaha jk.
Reasonable good thinking on your part Bagel. And when I picture it in my head there's a slight possibility he is.

But since there is 1% intel on Kagami it's mostly high speculation, that is Danzo/Hiruzen/Kagami and others were on the same Team. Makes me believe Kishi just wanted to highlight the releationship between Hiruzen and Danzo. We can't make out from ch.481, if Kagami hated/liked Hiruzen on getting the title Hokage.

But like I said in a previous post in another thread, there's always a possibilty since it's in Kishi hands. How long does he want to prolong the outcome?

Possibilities 'Tobi is' (a part of my post in another thread)
Quote:
( Click to show/hide )

1. Madara: Madara supposedly died during the bout with Hashirama. His first appearance as ‘Tobi’ was during the Kyuubi 2nd attack (Naruto's birth) and than the Uchiha Massacre. If he did survived the fight with Shodai, Kishi needs to cover a lot of ground with what he was doing over about 50 to 60 years ago without a mention. Before the Massacre and Kyuubi 2nd attack. Recovering, getting Shodai’s DNA, causing tension between Hidden villages?

2. Zetsu body transfer (with or witout help): His first appearance was during the waterfall incident between Naruto vs Sasuke. There is no mention of him before that day, not even in Kushina/Minato memory within the manga.
2.1 help from Mito: possible, she had access to Harshirama’s DNA, she could have been a mistress of Madara. To little is known about her, medical knowledge, involvement. Only appearance into the manga was during the recap of Kushina.
2.2 help from Kagami: possible, although he only received a front cover in one of the chapters.

A combination of 1 and 2 is possible this will cover 16 years of Naruto’s lifetime. Still needs further explanation from the moment he supposedly died by Harshirama hands and Tobi's 1st appearance in the series.

3. Shisui: Known as a brilliant/genius shinobi by his village. To have infiltrated the Mist and high assumptions of controlling the 4th Mizukage Yagura (told by Ao).
Itachi gained his MS by killing Shisui during the recap memory of Sasuke. Known by Itachi as mentor/friend, probably a Jounin at the time.
The 5th Mizukage couldn’t deny the fact the powers of Danzou and what happened to the 4th Mizukage were similar.
Kisame (while probed by Aoba) who met the person that controlled the 4th and gave him the title of the true 4th Mizukage (although it ain't actually clear who Kisame met, but seems connected with Ao observation on his assumptions of Shishui's involvement).

Tobi’s strong desire to have Shisui eye after Danzo was defeated by Sasuke and showed some anger that Danzo had crushed the eye, made me believe he had knowledge what Shisui’s eye was capable of.
Kabuto’s sharp remarks to ‘Tobi’ of ET’ing Shisui adding him to his collection of “failed” zombies within his army.

4. Obito
:Featured in Kakashi gaiden and somehow survived the crushing boulders. Was found by Zetsu, gave him growth steroids and gave Madara conscious to him.
5. Unknown Uchiha/Person

That kind of add things up. I could have forgotten about someone or a detail, please do add them on this list so we can finally make our own opinions/conclusions about 'Tobi'. And some already did.

Easiest way would be 3 or 4, if he wants to carry this manga for over 100 chapters, he probably could do a whole side story about a combination of 1. and 2. (.1 or .2)

(adjusted my graph ):
Ohh yeah, would be helpfull to make some sort of graph who I think 'Tobi' probably is:
1: 11,5%
2: 12,5%
2.1: 0,0%
2.2: 1,0%
3: 75,0%
4: 0,0%
5: 0,0%

Just with the thought Kishi would've left some hints within the manga.

And for the third person part, if this Tobi has/had Madara's EMS (unsure if he still has), wouldn't it be logical to assume that he tried to read from the So6P tablet?

Then picture that the original holder of that EMS, inscribed some of his conscious into the tablet. And whoever gains EMS (or someone else EMS, like Madara's) and read from the tablet unknowingly receives those conscious. Wouldn't he go ape with all those conflicting thoughts inside a person, giving him a split identity?
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:15 AM   #13
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you know i have always liked the possibility of Kagami being Madara/Tobi/Masked Man since his charcater was 1st introduced briefly in the series with Hiruzen and Danzo when they were young.
I know the popular theory is Shisui but just the way the Masked Man refers to Shisui leads me to believe its not him. Call me nieve but i believe Itachi really did kill Shisui and that Danzo cut up his body and did the Frankenstein thing with it (not that it was a Zetsu/Oro body double). I think Oro's work on Shisui and Yamato to create Izanagi is what began his obsession with the sharingan to begin with. The Masked Man seems to have a high familiarity with Danzo which if he's Kagami would be fitting as they were on the same squad. Also Kagami would be a good fit for the timeline agewise; that is to say he lived in the era of Madara Uchiha but he was likely a small child and him or his family could have been greatly influenced by his Anti Senju sentiment, so much that he would say that it was him.

For timeline reasons Obito never really fit for me and the name was just casual coincidence. As far as the major factor for me that the Masked Man is neither Madara nor Shisui nor Obito is the concept of "Chakra Recognition". By that i plainly mean that Madara and Shisui have recognizable chakra that can be detected by other people/creatures that would readily give them away. (Ao was able to discern the characteristics of Shisui's chakra and the Kyuubi itself is able to distinguish chakra of Madara -notably when he makes the comparison of it to Sasukes chakra). As often as Naruto has clashed with the Masked Man now if he was the original Madara i'm sure the Kyuubi inside of him would have tipped him off as it has serious hate for him. Likewise it would stand to reason that if Ao with his stolen Byukugan can pick up on it i'm sure a village full of Byukugan users would be able to detect if it was him (this is not proven but logical and practical).

Anyway like i said the popular theory is its Shisui but the Kagami angle to me is more practical and feasible.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:01 AM   #14
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Well no one is doubting that it's Madara's spirit inside "Tobi", I think everyone is just debating on which body he is using lol.

I'd like to add on to Reign's statement and say that for the Manga to proceed in the best possible scenario, I see the Kyuubi eventually forming a bond with Naruto, and the only way I see that happening is when the Kyuubi admits that he will be under the control of Madara (his arch-enemy) if he doesn't give Naruto full control. So no matter what it is definitely Madara's spirit (if not his regular body too).
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:36 PM   #15
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My main issue with shisui as tobi is the timeline. We all seem to agree that it is madara's soul in another body. Some people have pointed out shisui is missing his right arm and eye from danzo, and that tobi is also missing his right arm using white zetsu material as a fill in. My issue is when Tobi first fought the 4th hokage it is obvious he is missing his left hand http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/503/p-4 the left hand is not connected. At this point in time Tobi if it was shisui he would have to go back to his day to day life in the village for the next 5-6 yrs w/o making a move. Then before the uchiha massacre tobi would need to fake the death of the body he is in. Allow danzo to steal his right arm and eye with one of the most powerful doujustus in it? Doubtful... granted so is my theory. Also my other issue with shisui is that if he was so well known for his abilities and skill don't you think the hokage would have knowledge of his fighting style? Or recognize what shisui with a mask looks like because anbu where masks sure he could recognize person by hairstyle lol. I know if tobi is in shisui body he might still fight like madara , so 4th would not recognize it. but after he would still need to behave and fight like shisui or other uchiha might have become wary of him and a sudden change. When Ao noticed shisui chakra in danzo he said you couldn't fool him he saw through the illusion on the 4th mizukage http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/459/p-15 . If it was the same illusion wouldn't So have said something along the lines as that is the exact same as mizukage illusion? I only mention it because someone mentioned Ao verifying it was shisui who controlled 4th? A few pages before mizukage even says previous kage was under control but did not know by who.

Sidenote think it is obvious at least madara's soul is in that body if nothing else based on the way he talked about the first hokage.
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