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Old 11-05-2010, 09:25 AM   #16
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Amateratsu didn't pierce it, your logic is wrong. You have to look at the properties of the techniques. It consumed his entire arm and burned. Rasengan doesn't consume, it inflicts physical damage on a specific point of the body, causing constant pain due to the rotation. And this fully pumped Rasengan depends on Minato's control of chakra and how much he can put into it. Frankly put, I'm betting my two cents that Minato couldn't put much more chakra into his Rasengan and still use his FTG the way he did. All the constant control of chakra and performance of jutsu would be a monumental task, considering it had to be done quickly thus I'm calling the strategy he used on Madara won't be of much use because for starters, the Raikage has way faster reflexes than Madara (He avoided Amateratsu; Madara actually got burned) thus I'm certain he can avoid the Rasengan hit. Speed doesn't equate to reflexes and I believe he has what it takes.

You said that you can't pump chakra into Chidori? Don't ignore what the manga has provided for us. When Sasuke saw Itachi after two years, he powered an unusual stronger Chidori which began to peel his skin instantly, strengthened by the Curse Seal. What are you talking about? Kakashi said Chidori and Rasengan follow the same fundamentals in terms of chakra control, its just that Rasengan is harder to due to having to control the constant rotation and if you can't sync the pumpage of chakra into it with the rotation, the jutsu collapses. Also if you couldn't pump chakra into Chidori, then Chidori Nagashi, Chidori Senbon and Chidori Spear would not be possible at all.

Lets take for example shall we? You guys want to say Minato has faster reflexes but remember when Naruto had explosive tags on his blanket after Minato caught him? Minato had a forewarning and thus had to use FTG to get away, mind you even with this he still got injured. Now with Raikage, Raikage had no forewarnings of a jutsu being started because all Sasuke has to do is stare at you and bam, Amateratsu converges on the spot, mind you Sasuke does have to shut one of his eyes from what it seems like, however Amateratsu is near instataneous where as the sudden explosion he had a couple split seconds. this puts IMO, Raikage ahead of Minato in terms of reflexive action.

I'll post more later.

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Originally Posted by bertjor View Post
Actually, Orochimaru stated that there are very few people that can do it. Considering Konoha's history with the Uzumaki clan i would say more likely he can't. Such techniques are simply unknown to other villages.
Link to page please. Also Orochimaru never showed himself able to do Five Elemental Seal. What he did was Five Prong Seal, which disrupted the Elephant Seal Minato placed on him. If anythign we should be giving props to Orochimaru for doing his research for knowing what could disrupt such a convenient and strong seal such as which Minato produced because if you correct me if I'm wrong, Naruto's seal is actually not the customary one used for the Nine-Tail Jinchuuriki or at least not the one Kushina used. Continuing on, I think you might have meant Jiraiya and if thsi were the case, I would say its most likely so I agree with you, however he showed no evidence to the contrary and to say he could would be heresy and could not count as fact to rely on in the debate.

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We know far too little about both characters to have a debate solely based upon what we have seen. We know that Minato was faster- that is what the "his speed is comparable to that of the Forth Hokage" means. Period. Fast, but just a bit slower, and to a shinobi like Minato, that makes the difference.
We know more about Raikage and the usage of his techs more than we know about Minato and the usage of his. And no, your wrong there. Madara keeping up with Minato, yet Minato acknowledged as a stalemate. What does that tell you? Personally, I believe Raikage's speed is enough to keep up with Minato. Minato would have to then resort to his use of FTG to break it, but when he does that, what will he use as an attack? You see my point?

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Originally Posted by bertjor View Post
The second thing is whether the Rasengan can actually hurt the Raikage. Considering his physical strength, as well as his armor, I'd say he would have to take a few Rasengans in order to matter. So yes, only a genius would be able to execute well timed manuevers without getting himself hit, so his intelligence does come into play. We also have to consider the fact that being hit with the Rasengan doesn't put you out the second you come into contact. Kabuto was able to cut naruto's heart muscles, and considering that Raikage was still attacking while his hand was burning with Amaterasu, i'd say that would be quite an issue. Being a genius sometimes means calculating that there is no solution.
I can attest to this but IMO, those few Rasengans can only matter if he hits Raikage and as I said earlier, Raikage reflexive action is faster if we compare the feats shown, thus the strategy he used on Madara may not be effective on Raikage. Having the Raiton armour means not his defense is enhanced, but his nervous system, while this should mean he is more sensitive touch, the veil of chakra makes up for it as a defensive solution. To me this one of the best jutsus shown in the series by its very fundamental base (right word to use?). Raikage also has a very high tolerance to pain so I doubt he would even flinch to hit from a Rasengan. We have to bear in mind he used to train with Bee and Bee's fighting style borderlines on complete unpredictability, period. So how does someone counter that? Well Raikage definitely did because if he didn't it couldn't be training and Raikage couldn't be acknowledged as the better ninja in any case.


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What we actually know about the two makes this battle look like a cat and mouse game. They will keep chasing one another, with Minato slapping a Rasengan every once in while (but most likely not), but the Raikage would most likely win for one very simple reason- he has larger chakra supply and higher stamina than Minato. You would have the Raikage win because of that?
It could be a cat and mouse game or the Raikage can force it into serious combative play, because of his more offensive ability shown. Could Minato win in a situation like that? And if it comes to pass, yes Raikage would definitely win.
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:40 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Takken View Post
Amateratsu didn't pierce it, your logic is wrong. You have to look at the properties of the techniques. It consumed his entire arm and burned. Rasengan doesn't consume, it inflicts physical damage on a specific point of the body, causing constant pain due to the rotation. And this fully pumped Rasengan depends on Minato's control of chakra and how much he can put into it. Frankly put, I'm betting my two cents that Minato couldn't put much more chakra into his Rasengan and still use his FTG the way he did. All the constant control of chakra and performance of jutsu would be a monumental task, considering it had to be done quickly thus I'm calling the strategy he used on Madara won't be of much use because for starters, the Raikage has way faster reflexes than Madara (He avoided Amateratsu; Madara actually got burned) thus I'm certain he can avoid the Rasengan hit. Speed doesn't equate to reflexes and I believe he has what it takes.

You said that you can't pump chakra into Chidori? Don't ignore what the manga has provided for us. When Sasuke saw Itachi after two years, he powered an unusual stronger Chidori which began to peel his skin instantly, strengthened by the Curse Seal. What are you talking about? Kakashi said Chidori and Rasengan follow the same fundamentals in terms of chakra control, its just that Rasengan is harder to due to having to control the constant rotation and if you can't sync the pumpage of chakra into it with the rotation, the jutsu collapses. Also if you couldn't pump chakra into Chidori, then Chidori Nagashi, Chidori Senbon and Chidori Spear would not be possible at all.

Lets take for example shall we? You guys want to say Minato has faster reflexes but remember when Naruto had explosive tags on his blanket after Minato caught him? Minato had a forewarning and thus had to use FTG to get away, mind you even with this he still got injured. Now with Raikage, Raikage had no forewarnings of a jutsu being started because all Sasuke has to do is stare at you and bam, Amateratsu converges on the spot, mind you Sasuke does have to shut one of his eyes from what it seems like, however Amateratsu is near instataneous where as the sudden explosion he had a couple split seconds. this puts IMO, Raikage ahead of Minato in terms of reflexive action.

I'll post more later.



Link to page please. Also Orochimaru never showed himself able to do Five Elemental Seal. What he did was Five Prong Seal, which disrupted the Elephant Seal Minato placed on him. If anythign we should be giving props to Orochimaru for doing his research for knowing what could disrupt such a convenient and strong seal such as which Minato produced because if you correct me if I'm wrong, Naruto's seal is actually not the customary one used for the Nine-Tail Jinchuuriki or at least not the one Kushina used. Continuing on, I think you might have meant Jiraiya and if thsi were the case, I would say its most likely so I agree with you, however he showed no evidence to the contrary and to say he could would be heresy and could not count as fact to rely on in the debate.



We know more about Raikage and the usage of his techs more than we know about Minato and the usage of his. And no, your wrong there. Madara keeping up with Minato, yet Minato acknowledged as a stalemate. What does that tell you? Personally, I believe Raikage's speed is enough to keep up with Minato. Minato would have to then resort to his use of FTG to break it, but when he does that, what will he use as an attack? You see my point?



I can attest to this but IMO, those few Rasengans can only matter if he hits Raikage and as I said earlier, Raikage reflexive action is faster if we compare the feats shown, thus the strategy he used on Madara may not be effective on Raikage. Having the Raiton armour means not his defense is enhanced, but his nervous system, while this should mean he is more sensitive touch, the veil of chakra makes up for it as a defensive solution. To me this one of the best jutsus shown in the series by its very fundamental base (right word to use?). Raikage also has a very high tolerance to pain so I doubt he would even flinch to hit from a Rasengan. We have to bear in mind he used to train with Bee and Bee's fighting style borderlines on complete unpredictability, period. So how does someone counter that? Well Raikage definitely did because if he didn't it couldn't be training and Raikage couldn't be acknowledged as the better ninja in any case.




It could be a cat and mouse game or the Raikage can force it into serious combative play, because of his more offensive ability shown. Could Minato win in a situation like that? And if it comes to pass, yes Raikage would definitely win.
i agree he has better reflexes than minato but only to smaller degree, remember how he caught madara with the 2nd stage ftg he had to be quick to activate that jutsu , still being in madara field of vision (sharingan user) to land that rasengan to keep madara off guard from becoming intangible again.

also explosion is faster when molecules disperse it goes at a hypersonic speed while ameratsu is instantanous it still limited to how fast the user can target you which isn't hypsersonic For sasuke so he still had like half a sec or 2 to react. while minato was at point blank range , and he had to get his son out that blanket also before escaping so that is why he probably used ftg and got injured , which is still an amazing feat that he had time to do all that and still walk out with just a scratch on his foot.
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Old 11-05-2010, 10:51 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bushido Brown View Post
i agree he has better reflexes than minato but only to smaller degree, remember how he caught madara with the 2nd stage ftg he had to be quick to activate that jutsu , still being in madara field of vision (sharingan user) to land that rasengan to keep madara off guard from becoming intangible again.

also explosion is faster when molecules disperse it goes at a hypersonic speed while ameratsu is instantanous it still limited to how fast the user can target you which isn't hypsersonic For sasuke so he still had like half a sec or 2 to react. while minato was at point blank range , and he had to get his son out that blanket also before escaping so that is why he probably used ftg and got injured , which is still an amazing feat that he had time to do all that and still walk out with just a scratch on his foot.
While reflexive might have been called for that goes more for performance of jutsu rather than reactionary time. What he did was throw the kunai, and it phased through Madara, and when Madara became tangible again to strike Minato down, Minato instaneously struck him down from Rasengan from the back. That didn't call for much reflexive action on his part. The Sharigan field of vision isn't like the Byakugan where it can see from the back, it perceives at least whats in front of them so Madara only saw Minato in front of him and felt a blow at the back from him. Its instantaneous mate, its not speed or reflexes and you seem not to be getting that. His FTG is not speed.

You can't compare instantaneous movement with hypersonic speed mate. In comparing of feats, lets think of it like this: Sasuke stares at you to use Amateratsu; Minato finds explosive tags on Naruto's blanket - These moments could be considered the starting line. How Raikage and Minato react and successfully dodge the attack is the race and the time it took them to do it would identify the winner. Sasuke stared at Raikage and Amateratsu converged on Raikage, YET Raikage moved so fast he left an after-image and totally dodge Amateratsu, as it was put on him. People have dodged Amateratsu by mainly running away from the user's line of sight; Raikage stood him in the eye and dodged it successfully. Minato found the explosive tags on Naruto about to explode, and uses FTG to get away. FTG is instantaneous mate thus he has an advantage in getting away from the explosion 'faster' than the Raikage did. He did this and got away but yet still got injured with a scratch.

If you ask me, this how it is:
Raikage *high-speed* > beat near instantaneous conver
Minato *instantaneous* > hypersonic movement as you speak, yet keep in mind Raikage is hypersonic+.

What do you think is more impressive? Minato still got scratched even though he used FTG, Raikage was spotless.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Takken View Post
You can't compare instantaneous movement with hypersonic speed mate. In comparing of feats, lets think of it like this: Sasuke stares at you to use Amateratsu; Minato finds explosive tags on Naruto's blanket - These moments could be considered the starting line. How Raikage and Minato react and successfully dodge the attack is the race and the time it took them to do it would identify the winner. Sasuke stared at Raikage and Amateratsu converged on Raikage, YET Raikage moved so fast he left an after-image and totally dodge Amateratsu, as it was put on him. People have dodged Amateratsu by mainly running away from the user's line of sight; Raikage stood him in the eye and dodged it successfully. Minato found the explosive tags on Naruto about to explode, and uses FTG to get away. FTG is instantaneous mate thus he has an advantage in getting away from the explosion 'faster' than the Raikage did. He did this and got away but yet still got injured with a scratch.

If you ask me, this how it is:
Raikage *high-speed* > beat near instantaneous conver
Minato *instantaneous* > hypersonic movement as you speak, yet keep in mind Raikage is hypersonic+.

What do you think is more impressive? Minato still got scratched even though he used FTG, Raikage was spotless.
Hmmm......now this is an awesome match up. However, Takken, I believe you are downplaying Minato's base speed quite a bit. You are also only focusing on 1 single feat of speed for Minato, and forgetting that there is certainly another far more impressive one. This feat I speak of is actually the very first Shushin we ever seen him use way back in Kakashi Gaiden.

Do not forget that Speed is measured by time and distance. Now in this aspect, I must say that Minato is still superior in speed. The speed at which Kakashi travels during his Raikiri/Chidori is incredible. Now at this point Minato was quite a reasonable distance away from both Kakashi and the Rock Ninja. Yet with only a Shushin no jutsu (not Hiraishin no Jutsu) Minato instantly appeared between the both of them with finesse and percision. Similar to the Shushin no Jutsu he used to catch Naruto, I have noticed that every time Minato uses his normal Shushin no Jutsu, it is widely mistaken for his Hiraishin no Jutsu.

Now I ask you, which is more impressive:
- Closing a distance of almost 1/4 a mile effortlessly, with no suppliments and doing so instantly and appearing between two fast attacking ninja, without a scratch.
or
- Moving a couple of feet in one direction with speed ampliphied by a jutsu at such a velocity that he produces an afterimage and dodging Amaterasu without a scratch.

I have to say that if you really annalyze these feats, and considering that Raikage must actively engage his jutsu first in order to achieve these things, I have to say that Minato still has the advantage even without his Hiraishin. And speaking of Hiraishin, we cannot assume that we have seen it used to it's fullest extent. We didn't even know it was capable of absorbing attacks as powerful as a Full-power Chakra Blast from the Kyuubi until the flash-back. Then we also learned that Hiraishin has more than one "level". Can we really say that we have seen everything there is to see about Hiraishin?

Also, we are forgetting entirely that Minato's Rasengan is not the full extent of his offensive capacity. It would appear that people have completely forgotten about Minato's contract with the Toads. This opens the potential of damage exponentially. His ability to fight along-side and control Gamabunta (not directly, but in the sense that Gamabunta follows Minato's orders without question, something even Jiraiya can't do) means he can also summon Gamaken, and the duel-sword wielding Toad as well. Now from what I have seen, Raikage is not able to take down something quite as large as Gamabunta, not to menton when Minato is also engaging him simultaneously.

Another trait that we forget about regarding Minato's strength, is his proficiency with Sealing Jutsu. Kushina Uzumaki is one of the most proficient Sealing Jutsu users I've seen in the series. Even when Minato suggested that he will use Shiki Fujin, she said that such a jutsu was not even necessary, which imo implied that he had other sealing techniques in his arsenal. Not to mention the fact that he was instantly able to break a summoning contract that Madara had with the Kyuubi easily and quickly. Breaking a summoning contract that a ninja has is something that was never done by anyone else. It would not at all be surprising if Minato possessed some type of Sealing technique that could neutralize Raikage's Raiton Armor, but I think that may be stretching it somewhat..

We must also remember that Raikage must first engage the full power of his Raiton aura in order to produce those speeds. The fact that MInato's base speed is at such a level, this gives Minato another advantage. With Minato's normal speed he could attack Raikage before he gets a chance to activate his Raiton aura and gain his high amounts of speed, defense, and offense. I don't see Raikage tanking an instant-Rasengan without his aura.
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Do not forget that Speed is measured by time and distance. Now in this aspect, I must say that Minato is still superior in speed. The speed at which Kakashi travels during his Raikiri/Chidori is incredible. Now at this point Minato was quite a reasonable distance away from both Kakashi and the Rock Ninja. Yet with only a Shushin no jutsu (not Hiraishin no Jutsu) Minato instantly appeared between the both of them with finesse and percision. Similar to the Shushin no Jutsu he used to catch Naruto, I have noticed that every time Minato uses his normal Shushin no Jutsu, it is widely mistaken for his Hiraishin no Jutsu.
I have to disagree, a lot of people state that it was Shunshin No Jutsu because of what Rin said, but it's not even known if she knew how his FTG worked or not. Then again, that seal he used is too much evidence that points towards FTG. If you can combat the fact of what the seal was placed there for, I would gladly admit defeat.
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:13 PM   #21
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IN regards to Trini's statement it is debatable. Remember, just before any of that happened, Minato gave them one of his FTG sealed Kunais, to each of them. Thus he could have used that to teleport to where Kakashi was. Also, it could be that Rin knew nothing of his FTG technique because if they knew what it was, they most likely would have remembered to use it quickly and perhaps Obito could have been saved. In support of that point, many ninja did not know Minato's FTG, as was evident when one of the ignorant padawan ninja shouted at Minato for his order of throwing the kunai. It shows that his FTG was hardly ever explained, or kept secret to the higher-ranked ninja.

And Zack, I'll reply to your post later. It'll take some thinking lol.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:04 AM   #22
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In any event i emailed Kishi regarding this and he had his animators simulate a fight between them. The battle seemed pretty decisive and at the end it shows minato being trained to use mokuton jutsu which i think was pretty interesting.

http://video.adultswim.com/family-gu...-showdown.html


But seriously though the versatility of the FTG tech is why i am betting on minato. For starters he does not teleport to the seal itself. In actuality he can teleport to anywhere in a 2 meter radius of the specially marked kunai ( the kunai serves as the center focal point) this is seen in chapter 501.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-...apter-501.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-...apter-501.html
This being so he can throw kunai randomly in any direction and be able to attack within a wide range instantaneously.

It can also be used to reflect ninjutsu away from himself it can theoretically be possible to direct the attack back at the user. Speed, size and distance of the attack in relation to minato are irrelevant as shown here. The chakra blast is 1) fast 2) powerful 3) huge and yet minato is able to divert it away when it was still quite a ways away from him. Thus he could reflect a jutsu back at the attacker turning an enemies attack against them
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-...apter-502.html

So lets cut to the chase. Raikage is a tank close combat up in your face fighter. He is also careless and cocky and willing to take significant damage to just "land a hit" as we saw in his bout with Sasuke. Minato would have no problem getting up close and personal and his speed & seals would allow him to be able to get in and out at oportune times to score a hit.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
Seals can be used to cutoff/ seal or disturb chakra if minato can get close enough to land one seal he can get close enough to land a seal that suprresses chakra and might possibly disturb the Raiton armor (mind you i said disturb not destroy)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
more importantly its not just the jutsu you have but how you use it.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
he can teleport other people case in point when he saved naruto and he can teleport larger things like the Kyuubi and his chakra blast.

Battle raikage i can move around a fairly large range by just throwing kunai in random directions. I can get close enough to place my seal on him so i can move in and out of his attack range and look for openings in his defense. Finally if i can teleport things of various sizes and dimensions why don't i just teleport a leg, an arm, a head i am not limited to taking all of you i can just take a part of you. I am fighting to live i'm gonna get the job down whether its messy or not.

<Raikage holds battle trophy>
FTG
FTG
Minato holding trophy with Raikage's head in it.

Nuf said

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Old 11-10-2010, 03:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Trini Emperor View Post
I have to disagree, a lot of people state that it was Shunshin No Jutsu because of what Rin said, but it's not even known if she knew how his FTG worked or not. Then again, that seal he used is too much evidence that points towards FTG. If you can combat the fact of what the seal was placed there for, I would gladly admit defeat.
Actually, I think there was a misunderstanding in my statement. You see, I'm not talking about the time Minato appeared behind the Rock Nin, and Rin noted that it was a "Shushin no Jutsu". I agree that it was evident that it was infact Hiraishin no Jutsu, due to the seal placed on the Rock nin's foot.

What I'm talking about is when Minato placed the tag. When he stopped Kakashi from hitting the Rock nin with Chidori, and prevented the Rock Nin from cutting Kakashi with his sword. He appeared between both ninja without his Hiraishin no Jutsu. At that time, it was purely Minato's natural speed (Shushin). It was actually impossible to use Hiraishin at that point, because there was not yet a seal placed anywhere in that area, nor was there a special Kunai thrwon by him.

Edit: Also, there is something that I would like to add. After reading the posts in ths thread, I realized that even Raikage's Raiton Aura could be dealt with directly. This adds further to my mentioning of Minato's skill win Fuin Jutsu, and now I feel that Minato's being able to use a seal that can disturb or negate Raikage's aura is even more likely. As mentioned, it is highly probable that Minato posseses the Five Element Seral that Orochimaru used on Naruto. Not only Orochimaru, but Jiraiya (Minato's sensei) knew how to directly counter it. Now being that Minato and Jiaraiya trained closely together (Minato taught Jiraiya Rasengan), it is very likely that Jiraiay taught Minato his knowledge of sealing jutsu. Assuming he didn't already learn it from Kushina. Being that Kushina admittedly taught Minato sealing jutsu and the Uzumaki were masters of Sealing jutsu, and even feared for the power, I can't fathom Minato not knowing a jutsu that corrilates with Shiki Fujin. It seems strange that Kushina would only teach them man she loved only one jutsu, that happens to be a sacrificial jutsu lol. It's obvious that she taught him more than just Shiki Fujin. There are 2 people who both have large amounts of knowledge in sealing Jutsus. It seem very far-fetched that Minato did not learn any sealing jutsu such as the Five Element/Pronged Seal, or a jutsu that could somehow repel that Raiton Armor.

The more I think about it, the less I can see Raikage winning at all.

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Old 11-10-2010, 05:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Actually, I think there was a misunderstanding in my statement. You see, I'm not talking about the time Minato appeared behind the Rock Nin, and Rin noted that it was a "Shushin no Jutsu". I agree that it was evident that it was infact Hiraishin no Jutsu, due to the seal placed on the Rock nin's foot.

What I'm talking about is when Minato placed the tag. When he stopped Kakashi from hitting the Rock nin with Chidori, and prevented the Rock Nin from cutting Kakashi with his sword. He appeared between both ninja without his Hiraishin no Jutsu. At that time, it was purely Minato's natural speed (Shushin). It was actually impossible to use Hiraishin at that point, because there was not yet a seal placed anywhere in that area, nor was there a special Kunai thrwon by him.

Edit: Also, there is something that I would like to add. After reading the posts in ths thread, I realized that even Raikage's Raiton Aura could be dealt with directly. This adds further to my mentioning of Minato's skill win Fuin Jutsu, and now I feel that Minato's being able to use a seal that can disturb or negate Raikage's aura is even more likely. As mentioned, it is highly probable that Minato posseses the Five Element Seral that Orochimaru used on Naruto. Not only Orochimaru, but Jiraiya (Minato's sensei) knew how to directly counter it. Now being that Minato and Jiaraiya trained closely together (Minato taught Jiraiya Rasengan), it is very likely that Jiraiay taught Minato his knowledge of sealing jutsu. Assuming he didn't already learn it from Kushina. Being that Kushina admittedly taught Minato sealing jutsu and the Uzumaki were masters of Sealing jutsu, and even feared for the power, I can't fathom Minato not knowing a jutsu that corrilates with Shiki Fujin. It seems strange that Kushina would only teach them man she loved only one jutsu, that happens to be a sacrificial jutsu lol. It's obvious that she taught him more than just Shiki Fujin. There are 2 people who both have large amounts of knowledge in sealing Jutsus. It seem very far-fetched that Minato did not learn any sealing jutsu such as the Five Element/Pronged Seal, or a jutsu that could somehow repel that Raiton Armor.

The more I think about it, the less I can see Raikage winning at all.
I'm so going to hit this post with my point later with an observation I found :P

But are you forgetting that he already gave Kakashi one of his special kunai BEFORE the attack? Couldn't he have use that?
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Takken View Post
I'm so going to hit this post with my point later with an observation I found :P

But are you forgetting that he already gave Kakashi one of his special kunai BEFORE the attack? Couldn't he have use that?
I doubt it. They likely would have illustrated that, if that was the case. Also, the Rock Nin simply acknowledged Minato to just be fast as hell whe he used that Shushin. It wasn't until he officially used Hiraishin and killed him, that the Rock Nin realized that he was the Yellow Flash. Remember, this was the very first time we saw Hiraishin in action. If that Shushin he used to get between Kakashi and the Rock Nin was Hiraishin, they would have dramatized it, like they did when he used it to kill the Rock Nin.

Anyways, I look forward to your reply.
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:40 PM   #26
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In any event i emailed Kishi regarding this and he had his animators simulate a fight between them. The battle seemed pretty decisive and at the end it shows minato being trained to use mokuton jutsu which i think was pretty interesting.

http://video.adultswim.com/family-gu...-showdown.html


1) But seriously though the versatility of the FTG tech is why i am betting on minato. For starters he does not teleport to the seal itself. In actuality he can teleport to anywhere in a 2 meter radius of the specially marked kunai ( the kunai serves as the center focal point) this is seen in chapter 501.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-...apter-501.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-...apter-501.html
This being so he can throw kunai randomly in any direction and be able to attack within a wide range instantaneously.

2) It can also be used to reflect ninjutsu away from himself it can theoretically be possible to direct the attack back at the user. Speed, size and distance of the attack in relation to minato are irrelevant as shown here. The chakra blast is 1) fast 2) powerful 3) huge and yet minato is able to divert it away when it was still quite a ways away from him. Thus he could reflect a jutsu back at the attacker turning an enemies attack against them
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-...apter-502.html

3) So lets cut to the chase. Raikage is a tank close combat up in your face fighter. He is also careless and cocky and willing to take significant damage to just "land a hit" as we saw in his bout with Sasuke. Minato would have no problem getting up close and personal and his speed & seals would allow him to be able to get in and out at oportune times to score a hit.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
Seals can be used to cutoff/ seal or disturb chakra if minato can get close enough to land one seal he can get close enough to land a seal that suprresses chakra and might possibly disturb the Raiton armor (mind you i said disturb not destroy)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
more importantly its not just the jutsu you have but how you use it.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-...apter-503.html
he can teleport other people case in point when he saved naruto and he can teleport larger things like the Kyuubi and his chakra blast.

Battle raikage i can move around a fairly large range by just throwing kunai in random directions. I can get close enough to place my seal on him so i can move in and out of his attack range and look for openings in his defense. Finally if i can teleport things of various sizes and dimensions why don't i just teleport a leg, an arm, a head i am not limited to taking all of you i can just take a part of you. I am fighting to live i'm gonna get the job down whether its messy or not.

<Raikage holds battle trophy>
FTG
FTG
Minato holding trophy with Raikage's head in it.

Nuf said
I like the amount of facts and links you pulled out of your ass for this. I to am with Minato but ama combat what you said for the sake of correcting you. and for the sake of debating. I will answer paragraph by paragraph.

1) I agree with everything you said about the versatility of the FTG

2) Also very true, I have thought about this my self. I agree

3) Hmm...We cannot forget that Raikages was beyond the point of pissed off when he fought Sasuke. He was fighting the person who killed his brother. Supposedly. I wouldn't say he is careless, at the time he was pretty careless but he was only careless because he knew what he was capable of. In a normal fight where Raikage has no reason to be angered to the extent he was, he would have thought things out a lot more logically.
Raikage is a close combat fighter for a reason my friend. It won't be as easy as you say. His Physical strength with the ration armour is off the charts, almost comparable to Naruto SM strength, which tossed one of pains Rhyno summons like a toy. The only reason Sasuke survived any of Raikages Taijutsu or Tai/Nin Jutsu attacks is because he had Susanoo. An ultimate deffence. what does minato have if he's hit by Raikage? Nothing that we have seen. A single strike from Raikage can be lethal. He took a hit willingly so he could get Sasuke where he wanted him and he did. Garra broke it up. I do not know the power extent of Blaze Release ( Enton ) so I cannot say who would have won that final clash.

We do not know if Minato has the seals you speak of. The seal he used on Madara in the link you your self provided was called a contract seal. It is only meant to close the contract between a summoner and a summon. in this case Madara and the Kyuubi. Here is a link below to help.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Contract_seal

Further more, How can he put a seal on Raikage of Raikage has his Ration armor active? He would have to bring a stop to that for at least an instant.
We also don't know if Minato is capable of Teleporting individual body parts of someone else. It would be a hole different method and skill to do so.

Truth of the matter is, the only reason why I think It would be hard for minato is
A: We have seen Minato with no strong defense so it's likely that a single hit from Raikage can finish him. He has his speed and Summons to rely on.

B: We have not seen Minato use any offensive Jutsu's really except for rasengan. It's still not really known if Rasengan can brake through Raikages ration armor but we all know the damage level of rasengan can very because it depends on how much chakra the user pumps into it.

The main reason I would say Raikage would lose is a consumption of Chakra. I think the 4th can out last him in a fight. I think the 4th can really on his speed a lot longer then Raikage can. Raikage has more chakra but he certainly uses a lot faster then Minato does.

I think i missed something but if i remember i will say it.
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Old 11-12-2010, 06:59 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
We must also remember that Raikage must first engage the full power of his Raiton aura in order to produce those speeds. The fact that MInato's base speed is at such a level, this gives Minato another advantage. With Minato's normal speed he could attack Raikage before he gets a chance to activate his Raiton aura and gain his high amounts of speed, defense, and offense. I don't see Raikage tanking an instant-Rasengan without his aura.
I can agree here to an extent that the Raikage at base speed may not be up to scratch, however he is by no means a slow poke at base speed. Take a look at this:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...9_page_017.jpg
That is where Zetu appears, right in the middle of the room, in the space of the desk. Everyone is behind at their seats, especially the Raikage. Now pay attention to what Zetsu says:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_003.jpg
Raikage, in an instant moves from behind his desk, straight to Zetsu and has his neck to which Zetsu claims "He is ridiculously fast." Now in terms of feat I would like to compare this with the feat of when Minato caught Naruto. Now as you said previously speed is measured by time and distance. Now while naturally speaking, a person would think Minato has this outdone, however lets play attention to the factors in the room

1) Raikage was standing behind people.
2)Raikage was standing behind a desk.

3) Zetsu's ability to record. As we all know Zetsu can record but what is it that I'm getting at here? Remember when Madara wanted Zetsu to show him what happened of the battle between Itachi and Sasuke? Yes, then let me continue. You remember Sasuke used Kirin? With his ability Zetsu was able to record even the lightning strike, estimating its speed, generally speaking. With this in mind, it should be said that his peripheral (right word to use?) is at such levels that no one in the series could compare. Effectively speaking, the fact he could not catch the Raikage's movement at all proves that in close-combat environment, Raikage is at least at an advantage when it comes to closing distances.

Now for my first two factors, in comparing Minato's feat and Raikage's I'll use a race-like analogy. When Minato caught Naruto, nothing was in his way; the space he had was pretty much clear. In Raikage's case, he had two hurdles: His escorts and the desk. In a hurdle race, usually the times of the 100 metres is much slow than the normal sprint. Why is that? Is it because the atheletes theirselves are much more slower? Not necessarily the case though Usain Bolt would be like "Wut nigga?" lol.

Its the hurdles they have to overcome. Its not they are moving slow, but the obstacle they have to jump over. In a sense, the race is made longer because of the certain activity they have to do within the race. Now with the Raikage, he had to move around the table, and then go to the middle where Zetsu was. His desk was the hurdle had to move around. now he could have jumped over, literally speaking xD but he moved around the desk and ended up in the middle of the room. Now the impressive thing about this is the speed in which he did it. It was like he had no obstacle in the room.

http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_002.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_003.jpg

Now what makes the feat more outstanding is that Zetsu was staring in his direction at the time Raikage moved! At the very least you should have caught some type of muscle movement to imply he was about to move but he did not see anything, at all, even with his vision. And he was hella surprised too. Now in comparing this feat with Minato's, the distance he had to move around the "hurdle" can be comparable with the distance Minato had to move to catch Naruto. I'm not talking of when he was on the wall, because technically speaking, Minato continued to run, whereas Raikage stopped in the middle of the room. To get my point across a bit more easier, I'm willing to bet Raikage closed the distance to get to Zetsu just as fast as Minato closed the distance to get to Naruto. And please no, no "Madara couldn't even see."

To end of this point, the Raikage in his base is no slouch man. If anything it should prove that he has the fastest base speed besides Minato because no character besides these two moved that fast in the series that their initial movement could not be seen, and then their following movement could not be read. Hope you understand what I mean.

As for your argument that Raikage needs to charge up his Raiton Aura and Minato can strike him instantly with it, read this:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_015.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_017.jpg

Raikage engaged his aura rather quickly, though its specific time he engaged it can't be directly told, however judging from the panel in which Sasuke says nothing and the smoke is concealing the 3 Kumo ninja and then all of a sudden its blown away from the Raikage's powerful chakra, I'm willing to bet he can engage very, very fast, like split-second fast as he showed us. Even in engaging his Raiton Armour, he is QUICK.

Now with his Raiton Armour on, Raikage is very quick but read the eye-opener, listen to what Darui says here:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_003.jpg
Take into context what Darui is saying. He is saying Raikage " The speed of Raikage's sama nervous system and reflexes are comparable to that of the Yellow Flash" Now he didn't say with the Raiton Armour, he just said it within the context suggesting that normally he is at that level (remember Zetsu)but listen to what he says then " But since he has Raiton chakra amplifying his reflexes not even the Sharingan can keep up." With that in mind, Raikage with his Raiton Aura would then be on par at least with Minato's speed. But guess what? Thats his Raiton Aura at standard level, its without the increase shown to avoid Amateratsu. With that in mind, watch here:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_007.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_008.jpg
He then amplifies it even more now! Thus paying attention to what Darui said before and what happened now, it can be safely said that Raikage outdoes Minato's speed perfectly. It can't be argued because its all context mate. Raikage, with his Raiton Aura amplified to Super Saiyan levels outdoes Minato's speed if we piece together the statements!

Now your initial argument was that he could give Raikage a Rasengan before he engaged his Raiton Auro, however are you paying attention that Minato needs to store his chakra for Rasengan? Not like Naruto's preparation, however he still needs to prepare it, just like how Raikage has to prep his aura. Both ninja are equally quick in preping these techniques so I think for Minato hurting Raikage before he uses Raiton Aura isn't possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Edit: Also, there is something that I would like to add. After reading the posts in ths thread, I realized that even Raikage's Raiton Aura could be dealt with directly. This adds further to my mentioning of Minato's skill win Fuin Jutsu, and now I feel that Minato's being able to use a seal that can disturb or negate Raikage's aura is even more likely.As mentioned, it is highly probable that Minato posseses the Five Element Seral that Orochimaru used on Naruto.
Now your saying that Minato knew the Five Pronged Seal? I think its more probable he knew the Five Element Seal, after all, Orochimaru is a man who researches forbidden jutsu. I find it remarkable that Orochimaru knew of a sealing jutsu of that calibre and was able to perform it and successfully disrupt the seal Minato created himself! Minato is not invincible with sealing jutsu, thats for sure but then again Orochimaru is a ****ing badass but most fags are gonna diss him, saying he got punked on by Sasuke. ***** niggas need to respect him but tiny rant over xD Back on to it, Lets say that Minato did know the Five Pronged Seal, how would he use it on the Raikage to disturb his Raiton Aura? You may be saying "What the hell are you saying?" lol however pay attention to this please:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...9_page_007.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...1_page_012.jpg

Now if we pay attention here, especially to what Jiraiya is saying, we learn that the Five Prong Seal isn't used to disturb someone's chakra directly in that its for that purpose, its used to disrupt the relationship between Naruto's own chakra and the Kyuubi's chakra. Even and odd. Thats how the jutsu works. By placing his overlapping seal over Minato's own seal, Naruto is automatically unable to control his chakra, not because of his own chakra being disturbed, but rather because his chakra is unable to mix with the Kyuubi's. The relationship is disturbed in other words, thus is it even possible for Minato to use the Five Prong Seal in the context that you are suggesting he can use it to disrupt the Raikage's chakra? He has no seal relationship y'know.

But even if you can get past that argument, here is another. In the case that it can be used in the context you are saying it can, how will it get past the Raiton Armour?
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...2_page_016.jpg
As we see in this image, not even a full swing of his Raiton-powered sword can get through the Raiton Armor, that was an attack from the back. It simply bounced off. Furthermore he had to power up a Chidori:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_002.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_003.jpg
How far did he get? I doubt to even get past his ribcage, the point is that it barely penetrated the Raiton Aura, and Raikage didn't flinch, ONCE. He actually complimented it, wtf lol. Right after Sasuke hit him with it Raikage just grabbed him as though he felt nothing. Now getting to my main point, if a full Raiton charge sword swing bounced off the Raiton Armour, and Chidori barely penetrated it, how would the seal technique penetrate it then? The Five Prong Seal and Five Element Seal requires skin-to-contact on the specific area to work as shown. If its not possible with those two factors Sasuke used, how would Minato get past it? Orochimaru and Jiraiya both had Naruto take off his clothing, pay attention to that as well.

I hope your not gonna be telling me his finger strength rivals and surpasses that of a full thrust, powered by Raiton chakra because that would be pushing it then IN terms of Minato using that particular seal technique, it just wouldn't work.


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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
As mentioned, it is highly probable that Minato posseses the Five Element Seral that Orochimaru used on Naruto. Not only Orochimaru, but Jiraiya (Minato's sensei) knew how to directly counter it. It seem very far-fetched that Minato did not learn any sealing jutsu such as the Five Element/Pronged Seal, or a jutsu that could somehow repel that Raiton Armor.
Its probable moreso for Minato know the Five Element Seal, not Five Prong Seal.

I await your reply.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:42 PM   #28
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I can agree here to an extent that the Raikage at base speed may not be up to scratch, however he is by no means a slow poke at base speed. Take a look at this:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...9_page_017.jpg
That is where Zetu appears, right in the middle of the room, in the space of the desk. Everyone is behind at their seats, especially the Raikage. Now pay attention to what Zetsu says:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_003.jpg
Raikage, in an instant moves from behind his desk, straight to Zetsu and has his neck to which Zetsu claims "He is ridiculously fast." Now in terms of feat I would like to compare this with the feat of when Minato caught Naruto. Now as you said previously speed is measured by time and distance. Now while naturally speaking, a person would think Minato has this outdone, however lets play attention to the factors in the room

1) Raikage was standing behind people.
2)Raikage was standing behind a desk.

3) Zetsu's ability to record. As we all know Zetsu can record but what is it that I'm getting at here? Remember when Madara wanted Zetsu to show him what happened of the battle between Itachi and Sasuke? Yes, then let me continue. You remember Sasuke used Kirin? With his ability Zetsu was able to record even the lightning strike, estimating its speed, generally speaking. With this in mind, it should be said that his peripheral (right word to use?) is at such levels that no one in the series could compare. Effectively speaking, the fact he could not catch the Raikage's movement at all proves that in close-combat environment, Raikage is at least at an advantage when it comes to closing distances.

Now for my first two factors, in comparing Minato's feat and Raikage's I'll use a race-like analogy. When Minato caught Naruto, nothing was in his way; the space he had was pretty much clear. In Raikage's case, he had two hurdles: His escorts and the desk. In a hurdle race, usually the times of the 100 metres is much slow than the normal sprint. Why is that? Is it because the atheletes theirselves are much more slower? Not necessarily the case though Usain Bolt would be like "Wut nigga?" lol.

Its the hurdles they have to overcome. Its not they are moving slow, but the obstacle they have to jump over. In a sense, the race is made longer because of the certain activity they have to do within the race. Now with the Raikage, he had to move around the table, and then go to the middle where Zetsu was. His desk was the hurdle had to move around. now he could have jumped over, literally speaking xD but he moved around the desk and ended up in the middle of the room. Now the impressive thing about this is the speed in which he did it. It was like he had no obstacle in the room.

http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_002.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_003.jpg

Now what makes the feat more outstanding is that Zetsu was staring in his direction at the time Raikage moved! At the very least you should have caught some type of muscle movement to imply he was about to move but he did not see anything, at all, even with his vision. And he was hella surprised too. Now in comparing this feat with Minato's, the distance he had to move around the "hurdle" can be comparable with the distance Minato had to move to catch Naruto. I'm not talking of when he was on the wall, because technically speaking, Minato continued to run, whereas Raikage stopped in the middle of the room. To get my point across a bit more easier, I'm willing to bet Raikage closed the distance to get to Zetsu just as fast as Minato closed the distance to get to Naruto. And please no, no "Madara couldn't even see."

To end of this point, the Raikage in his base is no slouch man. If anything it should prove that he has the fastest base speed besides Minato because no character besides these two moved that fast in the series that their initial movement could not be seen, and then their following movement could not be read. Hope you understand what I mean.

As for your argument that Raikage needs to charge up his Raiton Aura and Minato can strike him instantly with it, read this:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_015.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...0_page_017.jpg

Raikage engaged his aura rather quickly, though its specific time he engaged it can't be directly told, however judging from the panel in which Sasuke says nothing and the smoke is concealing the 3 Kumo ninja and then all of a sudden its blown away from the Raikage's powerful chakra, I'm willing to bet he can engage very, very fast, like split-second fast as he showed us. Even in engaging his Raiton Armour, he is QUICK.

Now with his Raiton Armour on, Raikage is very quick but read the eye-opener, listen to what Darui says here:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_003.jpg
Take into context what Darui is saying. He is saying Raikage " The speed of Raikage's sama nervous system and reflexes are comparable to that of the Yellow Flash" Now he didn't say with the Raiton Armour, he just said it within the context suggesting that normally he is at that level (remember Zetsu)but listen to what he says then " But since he has Raiton chakra amplifying his reflexes not even the Sharingan can keep up." With that in mind, Raikage with his Raiton Aura would then be on par at least with Minato's speed. But guess what? Thats his Raiton Aura at standard level, its without the increase shown to avoid Amateratsu. With that in mind, watch here:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_007.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_008.jpg
He then amplifies it even more now! Thus paying attention to what Darui said before and what happened now, it can be safely said that Raikage outdoes Minato's speed perfectly. It can't be argued because its all context mate. Raikage, with his Raiton Aura amplified to Super Saiyan levels outdoes Minato's speed if we piece together the statements!

Now your initial argument was that he could give Raikage a Rasengan before he engaged his Raiton Auro, however are you paying attention that Minato needs to store his chakra for Rasengan? Not like Naruto's preparation, however he still needs to prepare it, just like how Raikage has to prep his aura. Both ninja are equally quick in preping these techniques so I think for Minato hurting Raikage before he uses Raiton Aura isn't possible.




Now your saying that Minato knew the Five Pronged Seal? I think its more probable he knew the Five Element Seal, after all, Orochimaru is a man who researches forbidden jutsu. I find it remarkable that Orochimaru knew of a sealing jutsu of that calibre and was able to perform it and successfully disrupt the seal Minato created himself! Minato is not invincible with sealing jutsu, thats for sure but then again Orochimaru is a ****ing badass but most fags are gonna diss him, saying he got punked on by Sasuke. ***** niggas need to respect him but tiny rant over xD Back on to it, Lets say that Minato did know the Five Pronged Seal, how would he use it on the Raikage to disturb his Raiton Aura? You may be saying "What the hell are you saying?" lol however pay attention to this please:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...9_page_007.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...1_page_012.jpg

Now if we pay attention here, especially to what Jiraiya is saying, we learn that the Five Prong Seal isn't used to disturb someone's chakra directly in that its for that purpose, its used to disrupt the relationship between Naruto's own chakra and the Kyuubi's chakra. Even and odd. Thats how the jutsu works. By placing his overlapping seal over Minato's own seal, Naruto is automatically unable to control his chakra, not because of his own chakra being disturbed, but rather because his chakra is unable to mix with the Kyuubi's. The relationship is disturbed in other words, thus is it even possible for Minato to use the Five Prong Seal in the context that you are suggesting he can use it to disrupt the Raikage's chakra? He has no seal relationship y'know.

But even if you can get past that argument, here is another. In the case that it can be used in the context you are saying it can, how will it get past the Raiton Armour?
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...2_page_016.jpg
As we see in this image, not even a full swing of his Raiton-powered sword can get through the Raiton Armor, that was an attack from the back. It simply bounced off. Furthermore he had to power up a Chidori:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_002.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...3_page_003.jpg
How far did he get? I doubt to even get past his ribcage, the point is that it barely penetrated the Raiton Aura, and Raikage didn't flinch, ONCE. He actually complimented it, wtf lol. Right after Sasuke hit him with it Raikage just grabbed him as though he felt nothing. Now getting to my main point, if a full Raiton charge sword swing bounced off the Raiton Armour, and Chidori barely penetrated it, how would the seal technique penetrate it then? The Five Prong Seal and Five Element Seal requires skin-to-contact on the specific area to work as shown. If its not possible with those two factors Sasuke used, how would Minato get past it? Orochimaru and Jiraiya both had Naruto take off his clothing, pay attention to that as well.

I hope your not gonna be telling me his finger strength rivals and surpasses that of a full thrust, powered by Raiton chakra because that would be pushing it then IN terms of Minato using that particular seal technique, it just wouldn't work.




Its probable moreso for Minato know the Five Element Seal, not Five Prong Seal.

I await your reply.
Hmmm.....well I have to admit that you got me with the Sealing jutsu thing. Well, alitte that is. As I pointed out, both of his closest relationships (Jiraiya and especially Kushina) has advanced skill with Sealing jutsu and obviously taught some to Minato. I wasn't talking about only those 2 sealing jutsu, I was talking about other sealing jutsu that Kushina possibly taught him, but it's just fruit for thought, don't take that part too seriously. And I believe the seal used for Naruto was not one that Minato created. I believe it was stated that Kushina taught him that jutsu. But like I said, that was really just an afterthought, I wasn't really basing a large portion of my argument on that. It was an excellent post, but you're incorrect on a few things. Staring with the Zetsu thing. Firstly, I think you're overestimating Zetsu's ability to pervieve quick movement. Zetsu had a full view of what was happening. Everything that Kirin did, was already within his line of sight. Also, Zetsu already knew precisely what was about to happen. He blatantly explained it in detail step by step long before Kirin was even executed. It couldn't have been more obvious what Sasuke was about to do. Then it does't help that Sasuke said "Disappear with the Thunder" then threw his arm down which was akin to him shouting "OK, I'm attaking with this big ass Lightning Bolt Now!!!!" lmao. Not to mention that Kirin was huge. It destroyed the entire Uchiha Hide-out. How could anyone possibly NOT follow such an attack lol. It wasn't as though Zetsu looked at where the attack originated, then followed it as it crashed down on Itachi, with extreme clarity. He saw it from the same prespective as everyone else. He just saw a big ass bolt of lightning striking down on Itachi. That doesn't at all show that he has some sort of abnormally superior eyesight at all. Plus as you even stated, Raikage was almost completely out of his sight, and Zetsu wasn't even focused on any single Kage. In fact, Raikage was completely behind Zetsu, not even withint his peripheral vision. Yes it's impressive to jump over the table that fast, but you're overexaggerating it just a tad. And lets be honest dude, Zetsu was less than 2 feet away from him. And let's not forget that Raikage was already standing, and wasn't sitting in his chair at that point.

And I think you completely forgot about the other feat of speed that I gave quite some time ago. You seem to only be focused on when he caught Naruto, but I already pointed out that it was far more impressive. I'll repost it for you:

Quote:
Hmmm......now this is an awesome match up. However, Takken, I believe you are downplaying Minato's base speed quite a bit. You are also only focusing on 1 single feat of speed for Minato, and forgetting that there is certainly another far more impressive one. This feat I speak of is actually the very first Shushin we ever seen him use way back in Kakashi Gaiden.

Do not forget that Speed is measured by time and distance. Now in this aspect, I must say that Minato is still superior in speed. The speed at which Kakashi travels during his Raikiri/Chidori is incredible. Now at this point Minato was quite a reasonable distance away from both Kakashi and the Rock Ninja. Yet with only a Shushin no jutsu (not Hiraishin no Jutsu) Minato instantly appeared between the both of them with finesse and percision. Similar to the Shushin no Jutsu he used to catch Naruto, I have noticed that every time Minato uses his normal Shushin no Jutsu, it is widely mistaken for his Hiraishin no Jutsu.

Now I ask you, which is more impressive:
- Closing a distance of almost 1/4 a mile effortlessly, with no suppliments and doing so instantly and appearing between two fast attacking ninja, without a scratch.
or
- Moving a couple of feet in one direction with speed ampliphied by a jutsu at such a velocity that he produces an afterimage and dodging Amaterasu without a scratch.
Now also remember that there was not only a significant distance for him to move, but there were far more obsticales (they were in a forest, remember) than just a desk. So no, I'm afraid that Minato easily takes the cake for being able to close distances. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. It was never said that his speed rivaled "Yellow Flash" at all. He said it's as fast as a flash of light. There was never any direct comparison to Minato at all. And you still have not mentioned how Raikage will take on Minato along with Gamabunta or any of the other Toad summons.

Btw, I put your reply in spoiler tags, cuz otherwise this would have taken up a whole page lmao.
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:43 PM   #29
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My respond will be focused on the Five Pronged seal, as I was previously discussing it. I may, however, later return to the subject of the Raikage's speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takken View Post
Now your saying that Minato knew the Five Pronged Seal? I think its more probable he knew the Five Element Seal, after all, Orochimaru is a man who researches forbidden jutsu.
Actually, you show me where the Five Pronged seal and the Five Element seal are 2 separate things. They are NOT. We are discussing the seal placed by Orochimaru on Naruto during the Chinnin exams.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Takken View Post
Lets say that Minato did know the Five Pronged Seal, how would he use it on the Raikage to disturb his Raiton Aura? You may be saying "What the hell are you saying?" lol however pay attention to this please:
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...9_page_007.jpg
http://images.inaruto.net/files/naru...1_page_012.jpg

Now if we pay attention here, especially to what Jiraiya is saying, we learn that the Five Prong Seal isn't used to disturb someone's chakra directly in that its for that purpose, its used to disrupt the relationship between Naruto's own chakra and the Kyuubi's chakra.
The nature of the seal (being an odd number seal) does disrupt the seal placed by Minato, which allows the Kyuubi chakra to mix with Naruto chakra, but that does not mean that the seal itself does not influence chakra control. This is clearly seen when it is placed into context:

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/90/p-15

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/91/p-11

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/91/p-14

Naruto was unable to control HIS OWN chakra as well, unless he was using the kyuubi chakra to stand on water. Being an odd number seal influences Minato's seal, but that does not mean that a previous seal is needed in order for the Five Elemental seal to work (or five pronged)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Takken View Post
But even if you can get past that argument, here is another. In the case that it can be used in the context you are saying it can, how will it get past the Raiton Armour?
Look at the chapters again. Orochimaru and Jiraiya had Naruto take off his clothes because they wanted to see the seal itself. It was curiosity, not practicality. Also, you are comparing (physical) clothes to something that is chakra (energy) based. That is what we call here mixing grandmothers and frogs- we are discussing 2 qualitatively different things.

Moreover, it is safe to assume that if you want a seal to have an influence on another seal, they have to be placed together. Mind you, this does not exclude the possibility that the seal can be placed on any part of the body and still just disrupt chakra control, but will not, in the case of Naruto disrupt his Kyuubi chakra.
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Hmmm.....well I have to admit that you got me with the Sealing jutsu thing. Well, alitte that is. As I pointed out, both of his closest relationships (Jiraiya and especially Kushina) has advanced skill with Sealing jutsu and obviously taught some to Minato. I wasn't talking about only those 2 sealing jutsu, I was talking about other sealing jutsu that Kushina possibly taught him, but it's just fruit for thought, don't take that part too seriously. And I believe the seal used for Naruto was not one that Minato created. I believe it was stated that Kushina taught him that jutsu. But like I said, that was really just an afterthought, I wasn't really basing a large portion of my argument on that. It was an excellent post, but you're incorrect on a few things. Staring with the Zetsu thing. Firstly, I think you're overestimating Zetsu's ability to pervieve quick movement. Zetsu had a full view of what was happening. Everything that Kirin did, was already within his line of sight. Also, Zetsu already knew precisely what was about to happen. He blatantly explained it in detail step by step long before Kirin was even executed. It couldn't have been more obvious what Sasuke was about to do. Then it does't help that Sasuke said "Disappear with the Thunder" then threw his arm down which was akin to him shouting "OK, I'm attaking with this big ass Lightning Bolt Now!!!!" lmao. Not to mention that Kirin was huge. It destroyed the entire Uchiha Hide-out. How could anyone possibly NOT follow such an attack lol. It wasn't as though Zetsu looked at where the attack originated, then followed it as it crashed down on Itachi, with extreme clarity. He saw it from the same prespective as everyone else. He just saw a big ass bolt of lightning striking down on Itachi. That doesn't at all show that he has some sort of abnormally superior eyesight at all. Plus as you even stated, Raikage was almost completely out of his sight, and Zetsu wasn't even focused on any single Kage. In fact, Raikage was completely behind Zetsu, not even withint his peripheral vision. Yes it's impressive to jump over the table that fast, but you're overexaggerating it just a tad. And lets be honest dude, Zetsu was less than 2 feet away from him. And let's not forget that Raikage was already standing, and wasn't sitting in his chair at that point.

And I think you completely forgot about the other feat of speed that I gave quite some time ago. You seem to only be focused on when he caught Naruto, but I already pointed out that it was far more impressive. I'll repost it for you:



Now also remember that there was not only a significant distance for him to move, but there were far more obsticales (they were in a forest, remember) than just a desk. So no, I'm afraid that Minato easily takes the cake for being able to close distances. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. It was never said that his speed rivaled "Yellow Flash" at all. He said it's as fast as a flash of light. There was never any direct comparison to Minato at all. And you still have not mentioned how Raikage will take on Minato along with Gamabunta or any of the other Toad summons.

Btw, I put your reply in spoiler tags, cuz otherwise this would have taken up a whole page lmao.
That feat is just not raw speed, its teleportation, you need to understand that.

It doesn't matter if there's a whole world of obstacles separating you from your target while using teleportation, it's not a factor as in Raikage's feat.

If you don't agree with me, then prove why it is Shunsin and not FTG, in the anime we clearly see he "marks" him (in the manga: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v27/c240/8.html) why in the world would he mark him if he's not gonna use FTG? Is it because Rin said so? As stated before in this post she didn't know at all about FTG, nor how it worked, so she could have just mistaken it with Shunshin.
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