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Old 04-12-2010, 02:04 AM   #1
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Default Vegeta and goku power levels

Being a huuuuuge vegeta fan i was truely disapointed wiv the gap between there powers.hardly what i would call a rival unlike sasuke and naruto or ryu and ken.obviously goku is going to be stronger but the gap was a joke. After there first fight on earth it started to happen.

Then they are both on super saiyan level and yet the gap was still just as big.i understand that goku got nooooothing but 'special' training from the start or prehaps dbz was trying to show us that working by yourself will always have its limits hence vegeta never going beyond an ascended saiyan (by himself), either way im just not happy about the the huuuuuge gaping gap between there powers

when ever vegeta was ready to fight the main villan frieza,cell etc he gets tossed aside like he's on the same level as krillan.they tried to make the prince of aaaaallllll saiyans a whipping boy
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:28 AM   #2
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your forgetting every opponent that overwhelmd goku or other stronger z-fighters(like android 19,ginyu,cel and etc) were slaughtered by vegeta.


And vegeta had the most intensive crazy mind/body killing training. the reason goku fight is because he wants to find his limit and surpass that limit in short goku thinks he can always be stronger that there is no limit. while vegeta always wants to achieve a certain limit and he keeps that limit until there is another stronger person.
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Old 04-12-2010, 12:35 PM   #3
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good kid buu....although i agree, by the time vegeta beat them they where no longer a threat.also although vegeta had serious training it never had the results that gokus did, not sure if that means he went though harder sessions or not.

when he thought cell it was at a level that didnt matter.Knowing cell wasn't perfect yet vegeta beating him never had the same effect

Your argument about reaching limits and surpassing old ones i totally agree with
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:36 PM   #4
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Well you must understand Vegeta and Goku's potential before you judge that. I am a huge DBZ fan and still am, more so than Naruto and I'm a fiend in that series also.

Vegeta gets stronger when he fights, just like every other Saiyan, but his progression is slow. It has been said time and time again and also admitted by Vegeta himself, that his anger kept him from achieving the strength that he wished for. Vegeta's goal was always to surpass Goku after their first inevitable battle, then seeing him in Super Saiyan form pushed Vegeta's determination further. As we all know, determination alone doesn't quite cut it. Vegeta's heart was pure for that very second that he was about to die. He let all his hatred go and focused on one thing, "Being better than Kakarot." That was the only good thing at the time in Vegeta's heart and with it, he progressed into a Super Saiyan. This is his first and last emotional upheaval that he wasn't simply thinking about himself but about a greater goal that was above his own pride.

Also, during the Android Saga, Goku managed to get stronger than him again. This is due to Goku's nature. Like Naruto, Goku has an innate ability for fighting. And like Sasuke, he learns and adapts to circumstances very quickly; but more so, like Naruto, he pushes himself beyond his limits, which results in victory.

Vegeta on the other hand is a person that likes to show off and brag about his power as soon as he starts a battle. He sees it fit to make himself known as the strongest before the battle has even started. Who does that? I understand that was his pride, but it was rather childish and stupid. To stronger enemies like Cell (completed), it was mere banter from an overconfident adversary. Vegeta's arrogance caused his own degradation and as a fact, kept him from becoming truly powerful. Vegeta was sweet in raw strength, but that was it. He was also a better tactician than Goku, I would give him that and also admitted by the Old Supreme Kai. Again, his arrogance to see what was truly the source of obtaining power is what destroyed his power gain. In DBZ, a pure heart, training and the ability to protect was always portrayed as the means to get stronger, but Vegeta never did any of that, did he?

Goku never got "special" training. Why should Master Roshi's or Kami's training be put above the way Saiyan's trained? As we have seen, Vegeta is a very well round fighter and can fight on par with Goku, regardless of Goku's reputation as the best fighter. It's just that Vegeta never had the power to beat Goku because his arrogance got in the way. Realize Vegeta never stayed clear-headed in a battle. He would always get angry if someone taunted him or stepped on his so-called pride. Vegeta caused his own mess, hence the big ass Gap in their power. Vegeta never tried learning from his mistakes until the end of DBZ, that is sad. Vegeta could've achieved ascended Saiyan but you have to understand that his training was very inefficient. Vegeta doesn't experience the emotional upheavals that Goku or Gohan experience to push their limits further. And most of these emotions come from helping their friends or seeing their loved ones hurt. Vegeta only cared about himself, which is why he never achieved greater power.

Well the prince of all Saiyans was a little boy. He cried anytime he didn't gain power. Grown as man like that, crying over his own foolish mess. I liked Vegeta, but his attitude always pissed me off and his pride was misplaced. How do you let Cell become complete? That was stupid. Vegeta was a semi-dumb character because of his attitude and his pride.. Other than that, I liked him because he was strong and never took shit from anybody, until they become stronger than him of course. But when he is stronger than his enemies, he is a beast.

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Old 04-13-2010, 02:29 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Atrum Prophecy View Post
Well you must understand Vegeta and Goku's potential before you judge that. I am a huge DBZ fan and still am, more so than Naruto and I'm a fiend in that series also.

Vegeta gets stronger when he fights, just like every other Saiyan, but his progression is slow. It has been said time and time again and also admitted by Vegeta himself, that his anger kept him from achieving the strength that he wished for. Vegeta's goal was always to surpass Goku after their first inevitable battle, then seeing him in Super Saiyan form pushed Vegeta's determination further. As we all know, determination alone doesn't quite cut it. Vegeta's heart was pure for that very second that he was about to die. He let all his hatred go and focused on one thing, "Being better than Kakarot." That was the only good thing at the time in Vegeta's heart and with it, he progressed into a Super Saiyan. This is his first and last emotional upheaval that he wasn't simply thinking about himself but about a greater goal that was above his own pride.

Also, during the Android Saga, Goku managed to get stronger than him again. This is due to Goku's nature. Like Naruto, Goku has an innate ability for fighting. And like Sasuke, he learns and adapts to circumstances very quickly; but more so, like Naruto, he pushes himself beyond his limits, which results in victory.

Vegeta on the other hand is a person that likes to show off and brag about his power as soon as he starts a battle. He sees it fit to make himself known as the strongest before the battle has even started. Who does that? I understand that was his pride, but it was rather childish and stupid. To stronger enemies like Cell (completed), it was mere banter from an overconfident adversary. Vegeta's arrogance caused his own degradation and as a fact, kept him from becoming truly powerful. Vegeta was sweet in raw strength, but that was it. He was also a better tactician than Goku, I would give him that and also admitted by the Old Supreme Kai. Again, his arrogance to see what was truly the source of obtaining power is what destroyed his power gain. In DBZ, a pure heart, training and the ability to protect was always portrayed as the means to get stronger, but Vegeta never did any of that, did he?

Goku never got "special" training. Why should Master Roshi's or Kami's training be put above the way Saiyan's trained? As we have seen, Vegeta is a very well round fighter and can fight on par with Goku, regardless of Goku's reputation as the best fighter. It's just that Vegeta never had the power to beat Goku because his arrogance got in the way. Realize Vegeta never stayed clear-headed in a battle. He would always get angry if someone taunted him or stepped on his so-called pride. Vegeta caused his own mess, hence the big ass Gap in their power. Vegeta never tried learning from his mistakes until the end of DBZ, that is sad. Vegeta could've achieved ascended Saiyan but you have to understand that his training was very inefficient. Vegeta doesn't experience the emotional upheavals that Goku or Gohan experience to push their limits further. And most of these emotions come from helping their friends or seeing their loved ones hurt. Vegeta only cared about himself, which is why he never achieved greater power.

Well the prince of all Saiyans was a little boy. He cried anytime he didn't gain power. Grown as man like that, crying over his own foolish mess. I liked Vegeta, but his attitude always pissed me off and his pride was misplaced. How do you let Cell become complete? That was stupid. Vegeta was a semi-dumb character because of his attitude and his pride.. Other than that, I liked him because he was strong and never took shit from anybody, until they become stronger than him of course. But when he is stronger than his enemies, he is a beast.
In the episode called "vegeta's respect" vegeta asked himself why goku was stronger why couldn't vegeta keep up first he thought the same thing you said:
Quote:
Vegeta doesn't experience the emotional upheavals that Goku or Gohan experience to push their limits further.
Vegeta said: "At first I thought it was your family and friends that kept pushing you that it was your instinct to protect them. I found myself in a family to but my powers didn't increase at all"

So Vegeta realized that his emotions(yess he haves them) didn't affect his powers. Somewhere in the episode he said that it made him sick the way goku fights "push to max and go beyond, find challenges that are even greater then himself" so based on this information I would say IF Vegeta surpassed Goku then vegeta would stop training because that is his goal. Goku on the other hand will NEVER stop training because he want more more more...

Examples:
* In the end off Z everybody had a "normal life" while goku is stil training.
* Goku let piccolo live because he wanted that piccolo would become his rival so goku stil had a challenge
* Goku's speech against kid buu was"It's a darn shame, I hope we fight again"
* When frieza killed Vegeta goku said he admired vegeta's strength.
* And even when goku became a SSJ he kept training in yardrek like every time goku finds a new level he immediately tries to go even further.

I agree on the rest you said.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:14 PM   #6
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Vegeta has emotions, I agree. There is a difference in saving your friends for love and then there is a difference of simply protecting and creating a family for your own selfish gains.

Vegeta didn't care about Bulma or Trunks at the time. The only time he showed care for Trunks was when he was shot by Cell and he went Berserk. Vegeta's power was way more impressive there than when he fought Cell before. If Cell didn't come back as strong as he did, I'm sure he would've been hurt by his attack.

Of course he said that he was sick of Goku's way of fighting. Goku never fought to hurt anyone. Vegeta always fought to kill and always fought for himself which is why he never gained power. In DBZ, the power to protect was always portrayed as top priority and Vegeta never followed that. He was a selfish character that only sort strength as a means. All he wanted was to be the greatest. Goku on the other hand only fought to gain experience and push himself beyond what he was capable of.

So in conclusion, if Vegeta was a lot like Goku in terms of simply fighting to go beyond his limits, then Vegeta would've been A-OK. But like you said, once Vegeta gains strength, he believes he is stronger than everyone else and then stops training. Goku was his inspiration but instead of simply taking his time and training to get stronger gradually, he kept forcing himself to surpass Goku. Vegeta was actually gaining power, but after seeing how fast Goku progresses, (which is a talent that Vegeta doesn't possess) Vegeta loses all hope and blames himself and everyone around him like a child. If Vegeta became the strongest, he would just be chillaxin on a sandy beach thinking that nobody is worthy of being better than him. So we didn't disagree with each other much.
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by kid_buu View Post
your forgetting every opponent that overwhelmd goku or other stronger z-fighters(like android 19,ginyu,cel and etc) were slaughtered by vegeta.


And vegeta had the most intensive crazy mind/body killing training. the reason goku fight is because he wants to find his limit and surpass that limit in short goku thinks he can always be stronger that there is no limit. while vegeta always wants to achieve a certain limit and he keeps that limit until there is another stronger person.
i would have to agree even though i am a vegeta fan as well he also is over confident at times when he reaches those limits
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:50 AM   #8
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“ but his progression is slow “
---No. That's what I thought too at first, but Vegeta's progression just couldnt outpass that of Goku. This is due to the fact that Goku ALWAYS trains in different and way more advantageous circumstances than Vegeta did.

“Vegeta's goal was always to surpass Goku after their first inevitable battle”
---“always” ????No. His goal was to be the strongest saiyan and warrior in the Universe. The proof is that right after the first time he was defeated by Goku's crew, Vegeta's first aim was to defeat Frieza, not Goku.

“Vegeta's heart was pure for that very second that he was about to die. He let all his hatred go and focused on one thing, "Being better than Kakarot." That was the only good thing at the time in Vegeta's heart and with it, he progressed into a Super Saiyan. “
---Err, no. Who told you he let go of his hatred ? Vegeta turn into a super saiyan bcoz he was soooo mad at himself after attaining a proper physical condition to become one ( thanks to the gravity room training). AT himself explained it in the Daizenshuu 7 guide. He also added the same thing for the ssj2 transformtion, saying that only Gohan reached it through anger, but that both Goku and Vegeta reached it through intensive training.

“Also, during the Android Saga, Goku managed to get stronger than him again. This is due to Goku's nature. Like Naruto, Goku has an innate ability for fighting. And like Sasuke, he learns and adapts to circumstances very quickly; but more so, like Naruto, he pushes himself beyond his limits, which results in victory. “
---No. At the beginning of the Android saga, Vegeta was the strongest saiyan. Many argue that it's bcoz Goku was weakened by the virus, but I doubt it. Besides, nobody knows if the virus affected his increase in power after the 3 years training , prior to the fight with Android 19. I only know it started affecting him after they flown to the battle field and his power started decreasing from then as he fought burninghis energy. And Piccolo who had been training with him during the 3 years stated Vegeta's power as “never been felt before”.
At the end, this thing didnt make sense, but Goku was stronger only for the fact he used the FPSSJ form and Vegeta didnt. It didnt make sense since Vegeta did understand the concept behind it and even explained it to Trunks, but both didnt used it anyway. At first one would think Vegeta didnt use it bcoz of pride but it still doesnt make sense since it'sa transformation and even Trunks,who admired Goku so much and finally understood why he was unable to beat Cell, didnt use it either. It just didnt make sense, except that only Goku and Gohan used that form bcoz only them have to be the heros, nobody else should !!!!


“Vegeta on the other hand is a person that likes to show off and brag about his power as soon as he starts a battle. He sees it fit to make himself known as the strongest before the battle has even started. Who does that? I understand that was his pride, but it was rather childish and stupid. To stronger enemies like Cell (completed), it was mere banter from an overconfident adversary. Vegeta's arrogance caused his own degradation and as a fact, kept him from becoming truly powerful. Vegeta was sweet in raw strength, but that was it. He was also a better tactician than Goku, I would give him that and also admitted by the Old Supreme Kai. Again, his arrogance to see what was truly the source of obtaining power is what destroyed his power gain. In DBZ, a pure heart, training and the ability to protect was always portrayed as the means to get stronger, but Vegeta never did any of that, did he? “
---No. His arrogance didnt stop him from getting more powerful, but overconfidence caused him to get beaten several times.To this, I agree.
Isnt Goku overconfident when he leaves enemies alive ( Piccolo's case) to fight them later, as if he knew for sure he would ALWAYS beat them ? Wasnt Goku overconfident when he gave an exhausted Cell a senzu bean just before fighting Gohan? Wasnt Goku selfish when he wanted only his son to be the hero and didnt explain to Vegeta and Trunks about the advantages of the FPSSJ form when he came out of the HTC, while they were all in this together and had only himself and his son capable of standing a chance with Cell ?
In DBZ , only Goku and his family were getting stronger for the simple fact that they are the show's protagonists and that the show is supposed to give a moral lesson about good being better than evil. This is the real and only reason why Vegeta couldnt make it as much. That's cliche and biased. What makes a saiyan stronger is training and recovering from injuries, but only at a smaller degree. Kindness never made their muscles more developed or powerful, otherwise all the dbz warriors would be just as strong. Those saiyans always trained, trained and trained. In the beginning , Goku couldnt even stand a chance with Raditz, even after a lifetime of kindness and goofiness. So how can a good heart be a factor to strength ? Even Future Trunks ( who has a good heart) couldnt get just as strong or stronger than Goku , Gohan or even Vegeta for that matter, so....
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:50 AM   #9
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“Goku never got "special" training.”
--- Is that a joke ????????? How is the training on King Kai's planet and in the Otherworld called then? Without those, Goku would have never, I repeat, never been able to even keep upwith Vegeta at all.

“It's just that Vegeta never had the power to beat Goku because his arrogance got in the way. Realize Vegeta never stayed clear-headed in a battle. He would always get angry if someone taunted him or stepped on his so-called pride. Vegeta caused his own mess, hence the big ass Gap in their power. Vegeta never tried learning from his mistakes until the end of DBZ, that is sad.”
---First, in one on one battles, Vegeta ALWAYS beat Goku. Second, Vegeta never wins over main villains bcoz AT doesnt want him to be the hero. Realize Goku always arrives at the end , conviniently better prepared than everyone else,except his son of course and if things get too tough for him, all hedoes is pull a winning out of his ass and have some friends help him at the end.
AT's hate and Goku being the main character caused the big ass gap in their power. At least Vegeta learnt what love is and finally turned good. That makes him respectable. Remember that unlike all the others such as Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, androids 17 and 18 and Vegeta, Goku had to suffer some brain damage as a baby to do it ( lame !)...


“Vegeta could've achieved ascended Saiyan but you have to understand that his training was very inefficient.”
---????? Vegeta did indeed reach ASSJ. Or you mean FPSSJ ? So even Trunks wasnt good enough for it ?Well, that form could be achieved by any saiyan who trained to remain powered up in their daily life. Which is why I still dont understand why both Vegeta and Trunks, except for the fact that tey arent the main characters. Vegeta's trainings were always efficient. What gives you the impression they werent is bcoz Goku surpasses him later for having trained in the otherworld or used a better transformation. Besides, Goku has never beaten Vegeta on the same saiyan level. For him to do so, he has to be in a superior level.


“Vegeta doesn't experience the emotional upheavals that Goku or Gohan experience to push their limits further. And most of these emotions come from helping their friends or seeing their loved ones hurt. Vegeta only cared about himself, which is why he never achieved greater power.”
---Really ? So how did Vegeta manage to progress at all ? And why was Raditz was way more powerful than Goku at first ? Goku first got stronger than Vegetawhen he trained on his way to Namek while Vegeta didnt. If Goku hadnt trained, his jolly goofy nature wouldnt have helped him in getting stronger than Vegeta, would it ?


“ Well the prince of all Saiyans was a little boy. He cried anytime he didn't gain power. Grown as man like that, crying over his own foolish mess.”
---ROFLAO...No, he cried when he saw someone unworthy, especially a jolly clown like Goku surpassed him, who for being the Prince should be the strongest one. He had his Royal Saiyan honour to protect since he's not gay. Anybody would be pissed off in his shoes. He wouldnt cry that much though, if he had known that what made Goku stronger is the fact he hit his head as a child.lol


“ How do you let Cell become complete? That was stupid. Vegeta was a semi-dumb character because of his attitude and his pride.. “
---How do you let your fiercest foes alive ? That's retarded. How do you give Cell a senzu bean ? That's retarded. How dont you turn ssj3 before Majin Buu hatches and allow yourself to get ***** slapped and knocked out ? That's even more retared...Goku was a completely dumb and goofy character because of his naivety and ”overconfidence”...Other than, I consider him extremely powerful, he rocks on a battlefield and I admire him...but only when I try to forget he got that for falling on his head as a child....
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:51 AM   #10
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“I would say IF Vegeta surpassed Goku then vegeta would stop training because that is his goal. Goku on the other hand will NEVER stop training because he want more more more... “
False. Vegeta's goal wasnt only to get stronger than Goku, but to be the most powerful warrior in the Universe. And just like Goku or any saiyan for that matter,he also wants more more more...Even Cell at his first form explained to Piccolo that he wanted to gain more power by absorbing the androids considering the fact he had Frieza and Vegeta's genes...

“Examples:
* In the end off Z everybody had a "normal life" while goku is stil training.
* And even when goku became a SSJ he kept training in yardrek like every time goku finds a new level he immediately tries to go even further.”
--- * At the end of dbz, both Vegeta and Goku were still training. Vegeta even criticised Gohan for turning into a complete nerd, if you listen to what Trunks tell Gohan when he goes to visit him at his house. He also criticised Goten by saying he got the same slack and softening habit as Trunks.Oh and full bloodied saiyans love to fight, so that makes it very unlikely for Vegeta to stop training. He was even eager to fight Goku at the tournament, saying that the arena was way too small for them to fight in it, meaning he thought they were in par with each other.
* Immediately ? I dont think so. He didnt right after beating Frieza on that planet he escaped to, but started training when he heard about the androids and was still a normal ssj for 3 years. But when he was defeated by 18, Vegeta was the first one to realize that there were some other levels that could be reached. Goku just listened to him through his dreams.
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:52 AM   #11
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“ simply protecting and creating a family for your own selfish gains.”
---What ? Please, no inventions.Vegeta NEVER created a family in order to get stronger. Notice Vegeta wouldnt even give a damn about Trunks until he saw him die, right before his eyes and he would have probably have continued that way if nothing had ever happened to Trunks.He didnt even try or care to help him and Bulma when Dr Gero attacked their plane. He just happened to have banged Bulma and a baby was born. That happens all the time. Remember he was even secretly ashamed of becoming attached to them and needed Babidi's magic to get free from these loving emotions cause he felt they made him weak.

“Vegeta's power was way more impressive there than when he fought Cell before.:
---Duh, obviously ! Remember he went into HTC once more and yes, anger made unleash what he had.

“Vegeta always fought to kill and always fought for himself which is why he never gained power.”
---????? He did gain plenty more power than before. He just wasnt stronger than Goku at the end bcoz Goku had trained in the Otherworld.

“All he wanted was to be the greatest. “
---That's not all he wanted. Remember he lso wanted to retain his honour as the Saiyan Prince , make a glory of his saiyan ancestry and retain Saiyan Pride and Honour.In my opinion, this is a very valid reason too.

“Goku on the other hand only fought to gain experience and push himself beyond what he was capable of.”
--- Goku first fought , just like Vegeta,bcoz it'sin their saiyan genes. This is fun to them and they just love it. Experience ? Who's the saiyan btn the two who even developed fighting techiques by himself and who also said he always push himself beyond his capabilities , while the other one had everything taught to him ?

“once Vegeta gains strength, he believes he is stronger than everyone else and then stops training.”
---???????? Err, now ,seriously , when did that ever happen ??????????????????????????? ?????????????????????? Last time I checked, after their first fight ,Vegeta rushed to Namek, without training to get the dragon balls before Frieza, who was even the strongest one. Even when he was stronger than Goku as a ssj, but weaker than Android 18, he spent 3 days staring into emptiness, trying to figure out how to train to get stronger quickly.
Please, what are you talking about here?????????????????????????????????

“Goku was his inspiration “
---No. From his childhood, Vegeta has always believed he should be the strongest being in the Universe, bcoz he's the Saiyan Prince. He became obsessed at outpassing Goku, bcoz that clown kept surpassing him, while being a low class soldier. After their first fight, Vegeta was more focusing on Frieza and the dragon balls. Goku wasnt even on his mind.

“but instead of simply taking his time and training to get stronger gradually, he kept forcing himself to surpass Goku.”
--- Now, this is totally ridiculous !!!!!! Is there a specific time to follow in order to get 'properly' stronger ????? Moral values dont count anymore ( according to you ) , huh ?

“after seeing how fast Goku progresses, (which is a talent that Vegeta doesn't possess”
---Now that's interesting !!! What talent does Goku possess when he needs to be taught every single thing he knows ?and had to fall on his head as a baby to get friends from all over to teach him and trains in the best training environment possible ??? Vegeta became mighty powerful by training alone, developing his OWN techniques and using his own brain and abilities. But to you Vegeta doesnt possess this talent , huh ?????

“blames himself and everyone around him like a child.”
– Everyone around him ???? Damn !!! dont have to lie like that to make a point !! When did he ever blame anyone else except himself for his failures ?

“If Vegeta became the strongest, he would just be chillaxin on a sandy beach thinking that nobody is worthy of being better than him.”
---I dont think so. As a saiyan he would surely try to look for a challenge. That was even the reason why he allowed Cell to absorb android 18 and Vegeta was the strongest being in the universe at that moment. And if one follows your logic, I could say the same thing about Goku.Remember that he didnt train much right after defeating frieza, except for learning the instant transmission that was taught to him, but he trained more seriously when he was told about the Androids.

You guys should remember that Goku is the hero he is, just bcoz of the lame and sorry excuse of suffering from a brain damage as a child.That's how he turned good. Vegeta finally turned good by himself. If Goku had still the love for fights, it's simply bcoz he's a saiyan and it's more deeply rooted in their genes than their agressive nature is. This is the reson why a saiyan can change his moral values but not his love for fighting...So how can one say that Goku loves fighting than Vegeta, who's the Prince of that race ?
Goku is so pampered an spoonfed into turning a hero. He always is helped in some ways.He even had to be helped in turning by simply falling on is head. It's lame if you ask me !!!! He even tried to pimp Videl and Bulma in exchange for Old kai's help, something that I cant imagine Vegeta do even in the most extreme situations. He's ALWAYS help by his friends to win battles. While Vegeta doesntlike to rely on anyone and I admire that about him. And the only reason Goku was first stronger as a ssj2 and had ssj3 is bcoz of the Otherworld ,bcoz he was good, bcoz he fell on his head a s a child....
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:57 PM   #12
Sesheenku
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"Goku has never beaten Vegeta on the same saiyan level. For him to do so, he has to be in a superior level."

Before I begin I'd like to go out there and state I prefer Vegeta over Goku, however I'm not going to be biased about it.

I saw this and had to correct it... First off indeed Vegeta starts off at least twice as strong as Goku when they first meet and Goku must use the kaioken at different levels to keep up with Vegeta, however during the Frieza saga Goku indefinitely surpasses Vegeta.

During the Android and Cell saga it's not so easy to tell, Goku is definitely weakened by heart disease, when the body weakens the power level either weakens or is meaningless altogether really, temporarily of course, due to the nature of a virus it's quite possible Goku was slowly weakening over time even before the full effects of the virus were unleashed.

During the Cell saga it's still hard to tell, even based on the fights cause Goku and Vegeta never fight and Goku can hold his own against Perfect Cell while Vegeta cannot, this is due to the fact that Goku used Super Saiyan during his relaxation time in order to get used to it and push it further unlike Vegeta so it's safe to say that during the start of the Cell saga, Vegeta may have been more powerful then Goku but after the Time Chamber stuff Goku was stronger once again. The fact that he could take on Perfect Cell is proof of that. Vegeta got his butt handed to him in the fight with Perfect Cell after all.

Then comes the Buu Saga, here's where the Goku can't beat Vegeta on the same saiyan level theory really falls to peices, Vegeta was only on par with Goku once he obtained Babidis enhancement, therefore it's safe to say Vegeta was at a super saiyan 2 level, maybe even slightly stronger and still Goku would have defeated him if he hadn't been tricked into getting the senzu bean. Cheap shot is all it was. Last but not least Goku had learned Super Saiyan 3, I don't even need to give an argument for this one.

Point is Goku and Vegeta surpass each other every now and then

At the starting point of their meeting Goku's Max power level is 9000, you are probably saying you idiot it was 5000 however! That would mean that the Kaioken technique would multiply more than is commonly believed, also during the anime all three enemy Saiyans concur that all the Z fighters hide their max power level and also if you multiply 9000 with the Kaioken's levels it makes more sense that he could give Vegeta such a hard time, Vegeta had to be at power level around 18,000-20,000 when they first met, cause if you re-watch the episodes you'll see Bulma say Goku's power level is upwards of 21,000 with Kaioken times 3 the final product probably being 27,000. (This is when her scouter breaks) Naturally Vegeta uses Oozaru to render Goku's Kaioken quite useless.

I'm currently re-analyzing all the little details of the series to give an argument of their power levels later on, I'm quite certain at the Android Saga Vegeta may have been more powerful then Goku but I also have no doubt that Goku surpassed him in the next saga.

"Goku is so pampered an spoonfed into turning a hero. He always is helped in some ways.He even had to be helped in turning by simply falling on is head. It's lame if you ask me !!!! He even tried to pimp Videl and Bulma in exchange for Old kai's help, something that I cant imagine Vegeta do even in the most extreme situations. He's ALWAYS help by his friends to win battles. While Vegeta doesntlike to rely on anyone and I admire that about him. And the only reason Goku was first stronger as a ssj2 and had ssj3 is bcoz of the Otherworld ,bcoz he was good, bcoz he fell on his head a s a child...."

That brings us to the lesson of this show and it's very true to life, nobody can go in life without relying on other people it's human nature and saiyan nature as well, Vegeta didn't rely on anyone cause he was also a pampered prince who was naturally stronger than everyone else, just cause being alone looks cool doesn't mean it's healthy.

I too admire Vegeta's coolness but he doesn't know much about life and Goku does, not consciously but because he was raised in a manner that promoted it, Like Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke had the natural talent of his clan but Naruto proved that even those who are looked down upon can surpass natural talent. Also Vegeta was at the otherworld before the final showdowns with Buu, Goku achieved this with training, was it special? perhaps but most likely it was just the release of limitations of earth, Vegeta had this opportunity as well while in HFIL if the rules applied in otherworld as a whole, and even if not he still could have become stronger the only reason he didn't is because he was too busy figuring himself out at that time.

I love Vegeta as much as any fan but that argument is totally fanboy dude.

"“after seeing how fast Goku progresses, (which is a talent that Vegeta doesn't possess”
---Now that's interesting !!! What talent does Goku possess when he needs to be taught every single thing he knows ?and had to fall on his head as a baby to get friends from all over to teach him and trains in the best training environment possible ??? Vegeta became mighty powerful by training alone, developing his OWN techniques and using his own brain and abilities. But to you Vegeta doesnt possess this talent , huh ?????

This is correct to a degree, Vegeta doesn't progress as fast BUT he does have natural raw talent, Goku does not, I suppose you hate Rock Lee and Naruto as well? Power and talent is to be admired but a hard worker who strives and struggles to obtain the same as talented people is to be admired even more. Also Goku was alone for a bit of his life, he fell on his head as a baby yeah, you act like it was totally his fault and he's a loser for it. If anything Vegeta should be further ashamed, A saiyan with a lower base power level is surpassing him when all his skills are taught. You're not arguing for Vegeta there dude you're making him look like a whiney weakling.

Point is Vegeta is naturally talented and strong but Goku was weaker and doesn't come up with his own skills, probably due to said head injury or maybe due to his sheer selflesness, either way your argument is more for Goku if you read between the lines.

"“Goku was his inspiration “
---No. From his childhood, Vegeta has always believed he should be the strongest being in the Universe, bcoz he's the Saiyan Prince. He became obsessed at outpassing Goku, bcoz that clown kept surpassing him, while being a low class soldier. After their first fight, Vegeta was more focusing on Frieza and the dragon balls. Goku wasnt even on his mind."

You're both correct, Vegeta didn't care about Goku early on HOWEVER during the buu Saga Vegeta realized Goku had qualities that he wanted and Goku was indeed his new inspiration.

"He always is helped in some ways."

I have to say something here, did you watch any of the fights with the main villains dude? Goku was not helped in fighting Frieza's full power, Goku wasn't helped when defeating Captain Ginyu, Goku wasn't helped during his battle with Perfect Cell, Goku wasn't helped in one of his fights with Buu. So you're wrong he's not ALWAYS helped but he IS helped Vegeta is also aided at times even if he doesn't want it.

This is your one flawless argument in my opinion

"“All he wanted was to be the greatest. “
---That's not all he wanted. Remember he lso wanted to retain his honour as the Saiyan Prince , make a glory of his saiyan ancestry and retain Saiyan Pride and Honour.In my opinion, this is a very valid reason too."

That was well done, I know it seems like I was defending goku here but I defended Vegeta just as much by correcting what you left.

Looks like when you typed this up you were nerd raging, make sure to chill and make your points totally valid (I'm not saying mine are). I do practice what I preach though believe me. I tried not to use any information I am not sure of as I'm in the middle of re-analyzing the series.

Well this was a huge post kudos to anyone who has the patience or devotion to read this. I could go into further detail about where your arguments go from valid to fanboy but this is long enough. Excuse me if this offended you in any way I'm simply debating and this post was not brought about anger but in a desire to share my insight. Take it as you would though.
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Old 10-31-2010, 04:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Sesheenku View Post

Then comes the Buu Saga, here's where the Goku can't beat Vegeta on the same saiyan level theory really falls to peices, Vegeta was only on par with Goku once he obtained Babidis enhancement, therefore it's safe to say Vegeta was at a super saiyan 2 level, maybe even slightly stronger and still Goku would have defeated him if he hadn't been tricked into getting the senzu bean. Cheap shot is all it was. Last but not least Goku had learned Super Saiyan 3, I don't even need to give an argument for this one.
You're wrong about this paragraph, even before Goku and Vegeta fought, Goku had already learnt hot to become a super saiyan 3, but he held back. Goku even states that when his at the lookout getting healed.
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