Sage mode vs Dojutsu; Yakushi Kabuto & Jiraiya vs. Uchiha Madara & Nagato

[antdog14]

lol wait a sec lol pervy sage solo's here with an easy rape for the most part XD

[PhaxMasta12]

Yeah, I got no clue. This can really go either way. Kabuto's ridiculous amounts of defense bars anything short of soul sucking from even fazing him. Jiraiya can offer support with the toads and somewhat hold off Nagato for a while. If Kabuto can get off that White Dragon, however, Team Dojutsu are screwd for at least a couple of moments. In which case, Team Sage can swoop in with the cheap shots ftw.

[UZUMAKI-NARUTO]

Originally Posted by antdog14

lol wait a sec lol pervy sage solo's here with an easy rape for the most part XD

How can Jiraiya get out of CT?

Can Jiraiya beat Madara's http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Re...lowering_Trees or http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Yasaka_Magatama ?

Can Jiraiya stand up to ST?

You say I can't debate when you just said Jiraiya who lost to Pain (Nagato) already but with a Hypersonic S+ Class ninja on his side who is beating the 5 kages is making a rape for his own team to one man?

If you said Kabuto rapes I would think about it and leave you but Jiraiya clearly cannot handle Mokuton Clones, Susano'o and Chibaku Tensei plus Shinra Tensei.

[Senrex]

Originally Posted by Gustavo

Fair enough.

@ Second paragraph. Oh.. So because Jiraiya choose to move linear he can't move in to different directions or can't follow him? This supposed linear reaction was only when he charged from the platform down to Preta path. Just because he did that doesn't mean he can't follow him. He was to fast for human path to handle. To fast for Nagato to react. Animal path only really reacted to him because he was being watched by the other paths. If not he gets blitzed. Nagato does not posses the time to just summon his animals, Jiraiya with intel will see through that. Nagato will get blitzed when up against Jiraiya sm.
Jiraiya moves by propelling himself forward with a lunge kind of thing. He can't just turn change direction in the middle of a lunge. He'd have to land first, so Nagato could get him while he landed. His movements are way too predictable in SM.
No what I meant was how long can he keep those clones with suano'o up.
Well zabuza's clones have been mentioned that they posses 1/10 of his strength. Also, keep in mind that whenever one opponnent is facing multiple clones 9 out of 10 times when that person is experienced enough in taijutsu he will take them all out with no damage at all. They aren't that effective in combat asides distraction and tactic.
Why would there be a time limit? Edo's can't run out of chakra IIRC. Lol, so you're saying that Jiraiya can manhandle Susano'o with taijutsu? Besides, with Zabuza, it wasn't stated what kind of strength is 1/10. It's probably his physical, but we don't know that at all, so we can't use that in any way here.
Bottom line is this. We don't know a thing about those wood clones. No durabillity, or how long they can keep susano'o up. Nothing at all. Yet you bring up those clones as if they pose a threat? No facking way And as long as they are featless. They pose no real threat. And aren't worth mentioning.
Why would there be a time limit for Susano'o? Edo's have unlimited chakra IIRC.

Responses in bold.

[Gustavo]

Originally Posted by Senrex

Responses in bold.

Btw I don't know what your talking about:
But human path is running towards him not standing still:

Based on the manga so it is canon 3:42


Also check 4:47 till 4:56

With the toads serving as extra eyes, and using smokebombs. He got around Human path pretty quick. Using pure speed, didn't need to propel or anything your talking about. The reason human path blocked is because he has someone else watching his back. Nagato doesn't have those bodies around this time. If you say Nagato is as fast as those bodies. And Nagato doesn't summon his animals in time he is screwed. Because Jiraiya surpasses him in speed in sm.


No I'm not saying that. Madara is mortal aswell. So no he doesn't have unlimited supply of chakra. This isn't the same Madara as against the kages who can do basically everything and never tire out. This Madara can tire out. Just like Nagato can.

Like I said before this Madara doesn't have unlimited supply of chakra. That would be an unfair advantage. His chakra can reach zero just as everybody else.

[antdog14]

Originally Posted by UZUMAKI-NARUTO

How can Jiraiya get out of CT?

Can Jiraiya beat Madara's http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Re...lowering_Trees or http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Yasaka_Magatama ?

Can Jiraiya stand up to ST?

You say I can't debate when you just said Jiraiya who lost to Pain (Nagato) already but with a Hypersonic S+ Class ninja on his side who is beating the 5 kages is making a rape for his own team to one man?

If you said Kabuto rapes I would think about it and leave you but Jiraiya clearly cannot handle Mokuton Clones, Susano'o and Chibaku Tensei plus Shinra Tensei.

but you can't debate and now you can't read i see.pervy sage starts in sage mode and has 30 mintues prep.nagato+madara will be saying hello to the frog song genjustu

[bertjor]

Originally Posted by Gustavo

Btw I don't know what your talking about:
But human path is running towards him not standing still:

Based on the manga so it is canon 3:42


Also check 4:47 till 4:56

With the toads serving as extra eyes, and using smokebombs. He got around Human path pretty quick. Using pure speed, didn't need to propel or anything your talking about. The reason human path blocked is because he has someone else watching his back. Nagato doesn't have those bodies around this time. If you say Nagato is as fast as those bodies. And Nagato doesn't summon his animals in time he is screwed. Because Jiraiya surpasses him in speed in sm.

For starters, may I state that I am not taking a position on the battle, merely on the issue at hand, since I believe I was amongst the first to argue that SM speed was derived from propulsion, rather then movement.

The notion itself derives from the fact that when you observe Sage mode motions as a whole, there is a discrepancy of how it is used and how people react to it.

Observe Jiraiya's body position in the manga

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-7/...apter-377.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-8/...apter-377.html

He is clearly not even touching the ground, and the position of the leg and the body clearly indicates a linear motion. If he was striking from the ground, the kick would have been upward and at an angle. We see a very similar dynamic when we observe Konoha Senpuu or Dynamic Entry (albeit, with slight differences, one being a strike with the foot, and the other from the side)

http://www.mangareader.net/93-214-16...apter-209.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-11...apter-148.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-12...apter-148.html

Of course, one may argue that Jiraiya may have rushed forward, then jumped and performed the kick simultaneously. Which is acceptable, if not for 2 problems. One, we don't see that anywhere in the anime or manga, and two, that would constitute a movement in 2 parts. Yet, we have observed when a movement is performed in 2 parts, which was here

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-15...apter-377.html

Jiraiya coming behind the path and striking. The problem is, the strike is too slow against the pains, as they can observe it. If you analyze the image of the kick, you will see that the Path doesn't even have his arms raised, or even attempting to raise them, meaning that they weren't able to observe it, let alone react to it.

As for what happened when the smoke bombs were used, even the anime gave a second or two for Jiraiya to come behind the Path, which is not a difficult move for a shinobi. It can comprise as much as one backflip, or ignoring that option a step to the site, and letting forward momentum of the path, as we clearly see that exists in accordance with his movements

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-14...apter-377.html

to bring the Path in front of Jiraiya. It certainly isn't a feat of speed.

Furthermore, and my apologies for not posting links, observe Naruto and his Sage mode. He blitzed Asura (I think) and completely wrecked him, from a direction that should be observable to the paths, yet, and this includes Jiraiya as well, is unable to replicate the same feat. His movements were also indicative of forward propulsion as well, and we don't see that forward propulsion movement anywhere in both Naruto vs Pain and Jiraiya vs Pain, except here

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-12...apter-377.html

However, Jiraiya created a Giant Rasengan, which is indicative of someone approaching, and necessitated a reaction.

So again, let me state that I do not take sides on the battle, but I do believe that the issue of SM forward propulsion has been resolved.

[Senrex]

Originally Posted by Gustavo

Btw I don't know what your talking about:
But human path is running towards him not standing still:

Based on the manga so it is canon 3:42


Also check 4:47 till 4:56
Running towards him in a straight line=\=jumping around sporadically. Since, as me and Bert have already said, his speed is based on propulsion, of course it would be easy to get something coming right at you. It would be near impossible to get something moving all over the place in no apparent pattern.

With the toads serving as extra eyes, and using smokebombs. He got around Human path pretty quick. Using pure speed, didn't need to propel or anything your talking about. The reason human path blocked is because he has someone else watching his back. Nagato doesn't have those bodies around this time. If you say Nagato is as fast as those bodies. And Nagato doesn't summon his animals in time he is screwed. Because Jiraiya surpasses him in speed in sm.

Look at Bert's post about propulsion. Besides, tell me when he's even going to have time to summon the toads. The moment he tries to, Nagato could just activate CT since that's what we're actually talking about.

No I'm not saying that. Madara is mortal aswell. So no he doesn't have unlimited supply of chakra. This isn't the same Madara as against the kages who can do basically everything and never tire out. This Madara can tire out. Just like Nagato can.
So how are we supposed to know how large Madara's chakra reserves are?
Like I said before this Madara doesn't have unlimited supply of chakra. That would be an unfair advantage. His chakra can reach zero just as everybody else.
Same as above

Responses in bold.

@Bert. Great post.

[Gustavo]

Originally Posted by bertjor

For starters, may I state that I am not taking a position on the battle, merely on the issue at hand, since I believe I was amongst the first to argue that SM speed was derived from propulsion, rather then movement.

The notion itself derives from the fact that when you observe Sage mode motions as a whole, there is a discrepancy of how it is used and how people react to it.

Observe Jiraiya's body position in the manga

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-7/...apter-377.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-8/...apter-377.html

He is clearly not even touching the ground, and the position of the leg and the body clearly indicates a linear motion. If he was striking from the ground, the kick would have been upward and at an angle. We see a very similar dynamic when we observe Konoha Senpuu or Dynamic Entry (albeit, with slight differences, one being a strike with the foot, and the other from the side)

http://www.mangareader.net/93-214-16...apter-209.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-11...apter-148.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-12...apter-148.html

Of course, one may argue that Jiraiya may have rushed forward, then jumped and performed the kick simultaneously. Which is acceptable, if not for 2 problems. One, we don't see that anywhere in the anime or manga, and two, that would constitute a movement in 2 parts. Yet, we have observed when a movement is performed in 2 parts, which was here

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-15...apter-377.html

Jiraiya coming behind the path and striking. The problem is, the strike is too slow against the pains, as they can observe it. If you analyze the image of the kick, you will see that the Path doesn't even have his arms raised, or even attempting to raise them, meaning that they weren't able to observe it, let alone react to it.

As for what happened when the smoke bombs were used, even the anime gave a second or two for Jiraiya to come behind the Path, which is not a difficult move for a shinobi. It can comprise as much as one backflip, or ignoring that option a step to the site, and letting forward momentum of the path, as we clearly see that exists in accordance with his movements

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-14...apter-377.html

to bring the Path in front of Jiraiya. It certainly isn't a feat of speed.

Furthermore, and my apologies for not posting links, observe Naruto and his Sage mode. He blitzed Asura (I think) and completely wrecked him, from a direction that should be observable to the paths, yet, and this includes Jiraiya as well, is unable to replicate the same feat. His movements were also indicative of forward propulsion as well, and we don't see that forward propulsion movement anywhere in both Naruto vs Pain and Jiraiya vs Pain, except here

http://www.mangareader.net/93-382-12...apter-377.html

However, Jiraiya created a Giant Rasengan, which is indicative of someone approaching, and necessitated a reaction.

So again, let me state that I do not take sides on the battle, but I do believe that the issue of SM forward propulsion has been resolved.

Damn you bert, didn't think I was debating against you both. I've read it 3 times and I see now errors. Quess your right.

@ senrex: thats's why his mokuton clones are featless. I forgot about Madara not having feats for stamina. Equalizing stamina between him and kabuto does that seem fair? Or give him the stamina of an Uchiha like Itachi?

[Senrex]

Originally Posted by Gustavo

Damn you bert, didn't think I was debating against you both. I've read it 3 times and I see now errors. Quess your right.

@ senrex: thats's why his mokuton clones are featless. I forgot about Madara not having feats for stamina. Equalizing stamina between him and kabuto does that seem fair? Or give him the stamina of an Uchiha like Itachi?

I'd say the stamina of Itacbi. That would make it a bit more fair. But even with Itachi's stamina, he'd be able to at least summon one clone.

[Gustavo]

Originally Posted by Senrex

I'd say the stamina of Itacbi. That would make it a bit more fair. But even with Itachi's stamina, he'd be able to at least summon one clone.

Fine by me. But still it's incredibly hard to say who wins. With kabuto being almost immortal. With Jiraiyas frog song ready to deploy. Nagato's CT/ST and madara's pollen. So many factors.

[Senrex]

Originally Posted by Gustavo

Fine by me. But still it's incredibly hard to say who wins. With kabuto being almost immortal. With Jiraiyas frog song ready to deploy. Nagato's CT/ST and madara's pollen. So many factors.

It all depends on what can be initiated quickest, which I'd have to say is Nagato's CT. You saw how fast it was when he used it on B, Naruto, and Itachi, right? Also, it was extremely quick when be used it on 6TK as Deva.

[UZUMAKI-NARUTO]

Originally Posted by antdog14

but you can't debate and now you can't read i see.pervy sage starts in sage mode and has 30 mintues prep.nagato+madara will be saying hello to the frog song genjustu

Madara and Nagato won't just stand there. Since they are close together they can release the genjutsu on each other. Also there are no feats for Frog song working properly outside of small echoing tunnels.

(well even if he did get caught inside a small enclosed area listening to it, Madara can use a genjutsu on Nagato to snap him out)

Then Nagato can CT.

[solorflare99]

Originally Posted by antdog14

but you can't debate and now you can't read i see.pervy sage starts in sage mode and has 30 mintues prep.nagato+madara will be saying hello to the frog song genjustu

I don't remember Frog song having range of 100 meters
also Frog song targets a person so how will jiraiya know which person to hit, it might be a clone.
Nagato could easily BT right at the begnning of a battle, and BT is quicker than frog song.

[Senrex]

Originally Posted by solorflare99

I don't remember Frog song having range of 100 meters
also Frog song targets a person so how will jiraiya know which person to hit, it might be a clone.
Nagato could easily BT right at the begnning of a battle, and BT is quicker than frog song.

CT would be a better choice. It's still faster than Frog Call.