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Galactus
09-07-2009, 03:27 PM
On a different thread, someone challenged me to make this thread, so I decided to.

I think that Itachi is really overrated around these parts. I know he's easily a top tier Naruto character, but people seem to overrate his Sharingan's power.

Anyway, I'll let someone else go first, I'd rather wait for a reply.

Typhlosion12
09-07-2009, 03:43 PM
Jiraiya, He trained the Fourth
Then again Itachi has Mangekyo Sharingan
This is kind of tough

Cifer
09-07-2009, 03:49 PM
On a different thread, someone challenged me to make this thread, so I decided to.

I think that Itachi is really overrated around these parts. I know he's easily a top tier Naruto character, but people seem to overrate his Sharingan's power.

Anyway, I'll let someone else go first, I'd rather wait for a reply.

We rate his Sharingan as much as you rate Pain's Chibaku Tensei and his other techniques. Also, you seem to be forgetting that we were discussing Sharingan and not saying that it was the only thing he would use or need to defeat Pain. Now, through my eyes Pain is the one being overrated.

For the Itachi Vs. Jiraiya fight, I still go with Itachi. Jiraiya openely stated when he fought Pain that he wasn't much for Genjutsu, Itachi is a Genjutsu master. I know that it will take more then just Genjutsu to defeat Jiraiya but I do think Itachi could handle him.

Galactus
09-07-2009, 04:07 PM
We rate his Sharingan as much as you rate Pain's Chibaku Tensei and his other techniques. Also, you seem to be forgetting that we were discussing Sharingan and not saying that it was the only thing he would use or need to defeat Pain. Now, through my eyes Pain is the one being overrated.

For the Itachi Vs. Jiraiya fight, I still go with Itachi. Jiraiya openely stated when he fought Pain that he wasn't much for Genjutsu, Itachi is a Genjutsu master. I know that it will take more then just Genjutsu to defeat Jiraiya but I do think Itachi could handle him.

Pain being overrated? And exactly how is this? Pain's abilities are simply superior to Itachi's, he's faster, he has more variety, his attacks do more damage overall, and only a few of his attacks even require much prep. If he uses Chibaku Tensei, Itachi's dead, simple as that. Pain's easily one of the strongest ninjas in Naruto, certainly stronger than Itachi.

Genjutsu may not be Jiraiya's forte, but he may have meant that he wasn't good at USING genjutsu, but not necessarily countering. After all, Jiraiya needs Ma and Pa for his genjutsu. Tsukuyomi won't work that well, as Sasuke escaped it through willpower, while Jiraiya came back to life with his willpower.

If Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and Shadow Clones, he can be too much for Itachi to keep up with and Itachi can't accurately hit him with Amaterasu.

If he uses Susanoo, Jiraiya can summon some toads to distract Itachi and wait it out until Itachi dies.

Lord Ikimichi
09-07-2009, 08:37 PM
Pain being overrated? And exactly how is this? Pain's abilities are simply superior to Itachi's, he's faster, he has more variety, his attacks do more damage overall, and only a few of his attacks even require much prep. If he uses Chibaku Tensei, Itachi's dead, simple as that. Pain's easily one of the strongest ninjas in Naruto, certainly stronger than Itachi.

Genjutsu may not be Jiraiya's forte, but he may have meant that he wasn't good at USING genjutsu, but not necessarily countering. After all, Jiraiya needs Ma and Pa for his genjutsu. Tsukuyomi won't work that well, as Sasuke escaped it through willpower, while Jiraiya came back to life with his willpower.

If Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and Shadow Clones, he can be too much for Itachi to keep up with and Itachi can't accurately hit him with Amaterasu.

If he uses Susanoo, Jiraiya can summon some toads to distract Itachi and wait it out until Itachi dies.

What makes you think itachi will let Jiraya get into sage mode. Remember it did take him a while and I see no way that he can buy that sort of time to get into sage mode. What would Jiraya do against Tsukiyomi or even Susanoo? Jiraya doesn't have the speed nor jutsu to rival Itachi.

And why would anyone use shadow clones? Naruto only uses them because he has a freakish amount of chakra. For everyone else that is a risky move because it divides ur chakra among clones that can't sustain damage that the host can.

ProvidenceX
09-11-2009, 02:44 PM
Itachi takes this fight
just look back at his final fight against Sasuke and while reading it remember that during that entire fight he was not even tring to win and that he was sick and near death the entire time
he did all that in his weakest state while being careful not to kill Sasuke
he is one of the most grossly overpowered naruto characters and is most definately stronger then Jiraiya

ChopMonkey
09-11-2009, 03:11 PM
I'm going to go with Jiraya. I'll wait for a debate to open up.

Lucas-kun
09-23-2009, 09:44 AM
am going with itachi.

Mundus
04-03-2010, 05:17 PM
He meant he isn't much of a genjutsu user, i'm sure someone like him can defend himself agains genjutsu even better than kakashi can, and i don't think i would be very easy for itachi to escape te genjutsu the two old frogs used on pein

Darui
04-03-2010, 06:18 PM
Itachi has this down as big of a J-man fan i am i gotta he stands no chance against itachi.

He is a genius and if serious he won't give jiraiya no time to prep SM nor summon anything. J-man is weak in genjutsu and even at his level he can't counter Itachi's genjutsus.

Itach is much faster than jiraiya in speed and in hand signs it is said he can do 5 different jutsu hand signs without anyone seeing it i.e when he fought sasuke he did 2-3 jutsus right simultaneously without sasuke noticed what happen.

Itachi was like the best of the best of his generation proof only persons i say that were in his generation is deidara, who was weaker than him not by much tho (not sure how old is pain but if he is around itachi age then i retract my statement).

Lord Ikimichi
04-03-2010, 08:21 PM
Bro why did you revive this ancient thread?

Atrum Prophecy
04-03-2010, 09:30 PM
What makes you think itachi will let Jiraya get into sage mode. Remember it did take him a while and I see no way that he can buy that sort of time to get into sage mode. What would Jiraya do against Tsukiyomi or even Susanoo? Jiraya doesn't have the speed nor jutsu to rival Itachi.

And why would anyone use shadow clones? Naruto only uses them because he has a freakish amount of chakra. For everyone else that is a risky move because it divides ur chakra among clones that can't sustain damage that the host can.

Are you seriously saying that? Are you forgetting that when Kisame and Itachi first came to the village to kidnap Naruto, they both said that they would have a hard time beating Jiraiya? You're basically saying that even though Jiraiya doesn't go into S.M. he can't hold off Itachi? Let me just put this in a nice way, the only tech that is going to give Jiraiya problems is Susano'o. I can't agree with anything else you said. Also, do you really think that Itachi can follow Jiraiya wherever he goes? Don't forget that Jiraiya can simply retreat into a frog's mouth or stomach like he did when he killed Animal Realm with Rasengan, power-up S.M. and then come back out to fight Itachi. Even if Itachi tries to run, he can trace chakra with S.M. Also, look at the tech he used against Kisame and Itachi? Remember the Toad Asophogus Jutsu he placed them in? Sure Amaterasu can burn through it, but I will love to see Itachi keep up Amaterasu for most of the fight. Jiraiya can basically alter the entire Asophogus to how he wants it, also he can hide within it as we saw how easily he hid Sasuke so Itachi won't torture him anymore. You're missing so many details it's ridiculous. If you want to debate on this, I'll be happy too. It should be a good warm up and I haven't debated with you in a minute. It should be interesting don't you think? I know you're not going to back down from a call out.:laugh:

I know Itachi's a beast, but ppl give him way too much credit; like he's a god of some sort. Misinformed to the highest degree. Bring it on.

Dream Walker
04-03-2010, 09:42 PM
Are you seriously saying that? Are you forgetting that when Kisame and Itachi first came to the village to kidnap Naruto, they both said that they would have a hard time beating Jiraiya? You're basically saying that even though Jiraiya doesn't go into S.M. he can't hold off Itachi? Let me just put this in a nice way, the only tech that is going to give Jiraiya problems is Susano'o. I can't agree with anything else you said. Also, do you really think that Itachi can follow Jiraiya wherever he goes? Don't forget that Jiraiya can simply retreat into a frog's mouth or stomach like he did when he killed Animal Realm with Rasengan, power-up S.M. and then come back out to fight Itachi. Even if Itachi tries to run, he can trace chakra with S.M. Also, look at the tech he used against Kisame and Itachi? Remember the Toad Asophogus Jutsu he placed them in? Sure Amaterasu can burn through it, but I will love to see Itachi keep up Amaterasu for most of the fight. Jiraiya can basically alter the entire Asophogus to how he wants it, also he can hide within it as we saw how easily he hid Sasuke so Itachi won't torture him anymore. You're missing so many details it's ridiculous. If you want to debate on this, I'll be happy too. It should be a good warm up and I haven't debated with you in a minute. It should be interesting don't you think? I know you're not going to back down from a call out.:laugh:

I know Itachi's a beast, but ppl give him way too much credit; like he's a god of some sort. Misinformed to the highest degree. Bring it on.


From your post it would seem as though ur just defending Jiraiya then actually voting for him. To be honest Trini, even though in the manga it said that Itachi and Jiraiya are pretty much equals, or implied it at least, I think that even with Itachi in his weekend state (eaten up by disease and vision loss from the sharingan ) He could still give Jiriaya more then enough problems on his hands. Don't get me wrong, im not saying that Jiraiya isn't powerful, cuz he is, but we have seen how the sharingan can make the strongest seem next to weak. Itachi at his strongest, IMO would beat Jiraiya at his Strongest. Taking in there Jutsu range, capabilities and intellect, I would both vote and debate for Itachi. Im here 2morrow, so if Iki doesn't want to take you up on this, I wont mind.

on another note: Yeah, the drawing has been coming along, but I really need to make more time for it. this kinda thing needs time. then only thing that inspires me to draw is looking back on my old drawing and seeing my improvement, but thats next to useless if i cannot find the passion to draw at very moment you know what i mean?
Peace man, im out.

Atrum Prophecy
04-03-2010, 10:17 PM
From your post it would seem as though ur just defending Jiraiya then actually voting for him. To be honest Trini, even though in the manga it said that Itachi and Jiraiya are pretty much equals, or implied it at least, I think that even with Itachi in his weekend state (eaten up by disease and vision loss from the sharingan ) He could still give Jiriaya more then enough problems on his hands. Don't get me wrong, im not saying that Jiraiya isn't powerful, cuz he is, but we have seen how the sharingan can make the strongest seem next to weak. Itachi at his strongest, IMO would beat Jiraiya at his Strongest. Taking in there Jutsu range, capabilities and intellect, I would both vote and debate for Itachi. Im here 2morrow, so if Iki doesn't want to take you up on this, I wont mind.

on another note: Yeah, the drawing has been coming along, but I really need to make more time for it. this kinda thing needs time. then only thing that inspires me to draw is looking back on my old drawing and seeing my improvement, but thats next to useless if i cannot find the passion to draw at very moment you know what i mean?
Peace man, im out.

IIte, tomorrow then. But seriously, I don't agree with you at all. Itachi is a beast I would admit, so if you're putting Itachi without any illness, I'll have to put Jiraiya back in his prime also. What Jutsu range? Amaterasu? As far as we've seen, Itachi only has a few Fire type jutsus and a few Water types (Only one was ever shown). Then he has Sharingan, MS, Speed, Intelligence. What else? Genjutsu? It was even said that even with Itachi's MS, Jiraiya poses a very big threat to Itachi and Kisame TOGETHER. lolz. You guys are crazy. Jiraiya is a Sannin that has way more battle experience than Itachi, with more strength, Chakra, his intelligence is a 4.5 so it's very much as effective as Itachi's intelligence. It's all based on how both of these characters use their abilities. With the abilities I've seen Jiraiya use, Sharingan would not pose that big of a threat except if he uses Susano'o. That is where I will have absolutely nothing to say. No one besides Danzo have broken through Susano'o. And Itachi's Susano'o has the mirror to defend so that is where Itachi would beat Jiraiya or Jiraiya might flee the battle until he can find a way to beat it. Or Jiraiya might even come up with a solution on the battlefield as he has shown to be incredibly intelligent in figuring out the enemies weakness in a short amount of time. And if you ask me, Jiraiya knows more about the Sharingan than the Rinnegan, so he shouldn't have that much trouble. If anything dude, post first. I would love to counter your post. I get off of work at 4, so I will be able to see it when I get home. Peace.

To Ikimichi, you also speak of Itachi's crazy speed. Pssshhhh, yeah right. Jiraiya has a 4.5 while Itachi has a 5. If you ask me Jiraiya has enough to keep up with Itachi, especially if he's in S.M.

Desty Nova
04-04-2010, 12:18 AM
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9932/itachivsjiraiyaxj5.jpg

Atrum Prophecy
04-04-2010, 12:35 AM
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9932/itachivsjiraiyaxj5.jpg

Very Funny. lolz.

NarutoFAN4R3AL
04-04-2010, 07:35 AM
Itachi gets way to much credit around here. I'm going with the Pervy Sage on this one. It would be pretty close, but I think jiraiya just has too much in his arsenal.

The reason itachi loses this fight is because he's too limited in jutsu. To beat jiraiya he'd have to spam his MS. I don't think itachi's genjutsu would do that much against one of the legendary sannin. And none of his other jutsu that aren't in his MS would work, it's that simple. Not to mention jiraiya's an extremely intelligent ninja, I have faith that he'd find some sort of way to ware itachi out. I guess you can say I'm not giving itachi enough credit, but he really hasn't shown me enough to prove he can match up with all of jiraiya's toad sage jutsu, not to mention his SM. Like I said before, the only thing that would really give jiraiya trouble would be his MS. And how long can he really keep that up before he's used up all his chakra?

Fish Slap
04-04-2010, 07:58 AM
jirajia, he has too many skills and he was taught by one of if not the strongest ninja there ever was, Hiruzen Sarutobi and jirajia also taught the forth hokage

Kurama
04-04-2010, 08:48 AM
Are you seriously saying that? Are you forgetting that when Kisame and Itachi first came to the village to kidnap Naruto, they both said that they would have a hard time beating Jiraiya? You're basically saying that even though Jiraiya doesn't go into S.M. he can't hold off Itachi? Let me just put this in a nice way, the only tech that is going to give Jiraiya problems is Susano'o. I can't agree with anything else you said. Also, do you really think that Itachi can follow Jiraiya wherever he goes? Don't forget that Jiraiya can simply retreat into a frog's mouth or stomach like he did when he killed Animal Realm with Rasengan, power-up S.M. and then come back out to fight Itachi. Even if Itachi tries to run, he can trace chakra with S.M. Also, look at the tech he used against Kisame and Itachi? Remember the Toad Asophogus Jutsu he placed them in? Sure Amaterasu can burn through it, but I will love to see Itachi keep up Amaterasu for most of the fight. Jiraiya can basically alter the entire Asophogus to how he wants it, also he can hide within it as we saw how easily he hid Sasuke so Itachi won't torture him anymore. You're missing so many details it's ridiculous. If you want to debate on this, I'll be happy too. It should be a good warm up and I haven't debated with you in a minute. It should be interesting don't you think? I know you're not going to back down from a call out.:laugh:

I know Itachi's a beast, but ppl give him way too much credit; like he's a god of some sort. Misinformed to the highest degree. Bring it on.
In the manga they never said they would have a hard time beating Jiraiya so your post is invalid. Also, if you did not notice Itachi was on the Leaf's side. That is why he did not kill Kakashi. Itachi never intended to fight Jiraiya.

Itachi is a genjutsu master while Jiraiya has not shown any defense against genjutsu. So unless Jiraiya shows some way to counter genjutsu at Itachi's level then there is no point in debating this. Itachi wins.


Itachi gets way to much credit around here. I'm going with the Pervy Sage on this one. It would be pretty close, but I think jiraiya just has too much in his arsenal.

The reason itachi loses this fight is because he's too limited in jutsu. To beat jiraiya he'd have to spam his MS. I don't think itachi's genjutsu would do that much against one of the legendary sannin. And none of his other jutsu that aren't in his MS would work, it's that simple. Not to mention jiraiya's an extremely intelligent ninja, I have faith that he'd find some sort of way to ware itachi out. I guess you can say I'm not giving itachi enough credit, but he really hasn't shown me enough to prove he can match up with all of jiraiya's toad sage jutsu, not to mention his SM. Like I said before, the only thing that would really give jiraiya trouble would be his MS. And how long can he really keep that up before he's used up all his chakra?

You are being ridiculous... You do not think Itachi's genjutsu will work on Jiraiya because he is a sannin? Orochimaru (who is a genjutsu master) was owned by Itachi's genjutsu. Jiraiya has not even shown any competence regarding genjutsu or being able to counter a genjutsu of Itachi's level.

Itachi is far more intelligent than Jiraiya. Do not even compare their intellect.

You also assume that Itachi is going to let Jiraiya prepare for sagemode.

NarutoFAN4R3AL
04-04-2010, 09:59 AM
In the manga they never said they would have a hard time beating Jiraiya so your post is invalid. Also, if you did not notice Itachi was on the Leaf's side. That is why he did not kill Kakashi. Itachi never intended to fight Jiraiya.

Itachi is a genjutsu master while Jiraiya has not shown any defense against genjutsu. So unless Jiraiya shows some way to counter genjutsu at Itachi's level then there is no point in debating this. Itachi wins.




You are being ridiculous... You do not think Itachi's genjutsu will work on Jiraiya because he is a sannin? Orochimaru (who is a genjutsu master) was owned by Itachi's genjutsu. Jiraiya has not even shown any competence regarding genjutsu or being able to counter a genjutsu of Itachi's level.

Itachi is far more intelligent than Jiraiya. Do not even compare their intellect.

You also assume that Itachi is going to let Jiraiya prepare for sagemode.

How do you know itachi is that much smarter than jiraiya? Jiraiya's no idiot, we've seen his skills in gathering information in his fight against pain. What makes you think he can't do the same thing against itachi? We have absolutely no proof showing itachi is way smarter than jiraiya (or even smarter than jiraiya). That's the only ridiculous statement here.

Ok, than if jiraiya finds a way out of his genjutsu this match is over? Because you don't seem to have an answer for anything else I stated, like jiraiya's clearly larger variety of kage level jutsu.

Like atrium prophecy said, he could just hide in one of his toads while setting up for SM. How would itachi follow him?

Orochimaru doesn't have jiraiya's willpower. I trust jiraiya to find a way out of itachi's genjutsu, if he does that game over.

Dream Walker
04-04-2010, 10:43 AM
IIte, tomorrow then. But seriously, I don't agree with you at all. Itachi is a beast I would admit, so if you're putting Itachi without any illness, I'll have to put Jiraiya back in his prime also. What Jutsu range? Amaterasu? As far as we've seen, Itachi only has a few Fire type jutsus and a few Water types (Only one was ever shown). Then he has Sharingan, MS, Speed, Intelligence. What else? Genjutsu? It was even said that even with Itachi's MS, Jiraiya poses a very big threat to Itachi and Kisame TOGETHER. lolz. You guys are crazy. Jiraiya is a Sannin that has way more battle experience than Itachi, with more strength, Chakra, his intelligence is a 4.5 so it's very much as effective as Itachi's intelligence. It's all based on how both of these characters use their abilities. With the abilities I've seen Jiraiya use, Sharingan would not pose that big of a threat except if he uses Susano'o. That is where I will have absolutely nothing to say. No one besides Danzo have broken through Susano'o. And Itachi's Susano'o has the mirror to defend so that is where Itachi would beat Jiraiya or Jiraiya might flee the battle until he can find a way to beat it. Or Jiraiya might even come up with a solution on the battlefield as he has shown to be incredibly intelligent in figuring out the enemies weakness in a short amount of time. And if you ask me, Jiraiya knows more about the Sharingan than the Rinnegan, so he shouldn't have that much trouble. If anything dude, post first. I would love to counter your post. I get off of work at 4, so I will be able to see it when I get home. Peace.

To Ikimichi, you also speak of Itachi's crazy speed. Pssshhhh, yeah right. Jiraiya has a 4.5 while Itachi has a 5. If you ask me Jiraiya has enough to keep up with Itachi, especially if he's in S.M.

It would come down to how they use their abilities. In terms of Speed and hand to hand combat, lol I don't care what you say (exaggeration, im paying well attention ), Itachi would take this. they have equal Tai Jutsu but Itachi is faster. Like you said, normally, a .5 wouldn't make that much of a difference and would allow Jiraiya to keep up with Itachi, but Itachi is accompanied by the sharingan. So as far as predicting moves and analyzing weaknesses, Itachi would take the cake over Jiraiya. Lee taught Sasuke a lesson by showing him that the sharingan is almost usless when predicting movements but not being able to keep up. In this case, Itachi has more then enough speed to counteract Jiraiyas moves without the sharingan. As far as Intelligence goes, Itachi is superior in this area but they both have level 5s in Ninjutsu, but the use of Intelligence a long with your arsenal of Jutsu is what can determine a match. Itachi is also quicker at preforming hand seals. Jutsu can be let off in much quicker succession. Hand speed would include the use of weaponry as well. Now for what everyone else said, and I my self think this is true. for Jiraiya to beat Itachi when there both in there prime. Jiraiya needs more talent and Skill in Genjutsu. I mean he's going up against a master at it, someone of which can point a single finger at you and put you into it. If Jiraiya gets hit with a Styukiomi, the match is done. If Jiraiya gets hit with any Genjutsu from itachi, the match will take a turn in Itachi's favor. Jiraiya would have to look at itachi's feet and predict his movements, which did not have gai's training for. where as Itachi is free to look where he wants.

Jiraiya sage mode would be very effective, but he needs pa and ma frog to do so. Which is why when he fought pain he made the seal on his face and summoned them. It takes time to summon them to the field. Remember how long Jiraiya had to run from pain for.

Atrum Prophecy
04-04-2010, 09:59 PM
SNIP

but Itachi is accompanied by the sharingan. So as far as predicting moves and analyzing weaknesses, Itachi would take the cake over Jiraiya.

Wrong, it has been shown time and time again that if a fighter is fast enough to trick the Sharingan eye, trying to predict movements is pretty much a waste.

In this case, Itachi has more then enough speed to counteract Jiraiyas moves without the sharingan.

You're giving Itachi way to much credit. Jiraiya would be well prepared for someone of Itachi's caliber. Jiraiya and Itachi have totally different fighting styles. If Jiraiya's Taijutsu can outmaneuver Itachi's counters, then speed or no speed, Itachi would lose. You can't put speed as a benefit to characters who have approximately the same speed and different forms of Taijutsu. That's like Jet Li going up against Bruce Lee. They have totally different styles. Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee) is strictly based on speed and power whereas, Iron Fist and the Praying Mantis styles together (Jet Li) can prove very difficult in getting around its unpredictable strikes. So wrong point on your part. Come again. And you know I'm a Martial Artist so I know a lot about how speed and unpredictability works. Also, one more example. In the Movie, Drunken Master with Jackie Chan, perfect example, in the last fight, Jackie Chan fought a Tae Kwon Do maniac. This dude was insanely fast, and Jackie Chan with unpredictability of the Drunken Boxing tore him apart. Speed doesn't matter especially if your opponent can match your speed.

As far as Intelligence goes, Itachi is superior in this area but they both have level 5s in Ninjutsu, but the use of Intelligence a long with your arsenal of Jutsu is what can determine a match.

That's true, but the same could be said for Jiraiya too, who has more jutsus in his arsenal than Itachi. Also, it was pretty easy to trap Itachi in the esophagus of the Mountain Toad, so what's stopping him from being trapped again? I am well aware that Amaterasu can burn through it, but as long as Jiraiya can keep Itachi guessing in the Toad's stomach, what is Itachi going to do? Spam Amaterasu and waste Chakra? Don't forget that both characters are pretty much around the same stats and Jiraiya has way more experience accompanied by S.M. and a 5 in chakra. Jiraiya would not combat a Sharingan user if he wasn't skilled enough to fight one. Also, his teacher was the 3rd Hokage, which should definitely prove useful in a fight between the two.


for Jiraiya to beat Itachi when there both in there prime. Jiraiya needs more talent and Skill in Genjutsu.

I do not believe this is generally true and don't forget if Jiraiya is in S.M., I would love to see him get away from Magen Gamarinsho. That was the Genjutsu that the toads used on Pain. Also, Kekkai: Tengai Hojin (The Barrier that is used to detect movements and the position of any enemy that steps within it) will prove useful against Itachi's speed if, and that's a BIG IF, Jiraiya can't keep up with him.

I mean he's going up against a master at it, someone of which can point a single finger at you and put you into it.

You are undermining Jiraiya so much right now. He's not that stupid to be caught by a Genjutsu like that. Also, Jiraiya has more experience in dealing with Genjutsu than Naruto and can break out of it with ease. (The finger pointing Genjutsu is still just a regular Genjutsu and not one from the Sharingan, so that will make it all too easy for Jiraiya to get out of it.)

If Jiraiya gets hit with a Styukiomi, the match is done.

Yeah and that's a BIG IF buddy. I'm sure Jiraiya already knows of that tech as it is very common. Also, Kakashi was able to fight on par with Itachi before he used his Tsukiyomi and Kakashi tricked him. If that was the real Itachi, Naruto would've killed him. He straight up fell for Kakashi's Kage Bunshin trick and that is fact. So you're telling me that Itachi with his regular Sharigan would beat Jiraiya? Yeah right.


Jiraiya would have to look at itachi's feet and predict his movements, which did not have gai's training for. where as Itachi is free to look where he wants.

Again with the assumptions. Why are you limiting Jiraiya so much? He has way more jutsus than Itachi and has jutsus that he can use to trap or trick Itachi. Doton Yomi Numa (Swamp of the underworld) is a perfect example. With perfect timing and execution, this could quickly immobilize Itachi and the fight can easily go into Jiraiya's favor as opposed to your whole Genjutsu talk.


Jiraiya sage mode would be very effective, but he needs pa and ma frog to do so. Which is why when he fought pain he made the seal on his face and summoned them. It takes time to summon them to the field. Remember how long Jiraiya had to run from pain for.

I agree with you here, but isn't safe to say that Jiraiya can quickly retreat into a toad, get into S.M. and come out to fight Itachi? It's been done before. We saw when he retreated into the frog and pulled Animal Realm with him. The other Pains couldn't detect his presence nor the presence of the Frog he was in. Again, you're limiting Jiraiya's judgements and prowess a lot. This is exactly why I hate the Sharingan. Fans and noob could easily say anything that the Sharingan could do and think that it would immediately work on skilled ninjas like Jiraiya.

In the manga they never said they would have a hard time beating Jiraiya so your post is invalid. Also, if you did not notice Itachi was on the Leaf's side. That is why he did not kill Kakashi. Itachi never intended to fight Jiraiya.


Really? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/10/

Same thing isn't it? If Kisame could say that he'll be a match for the both of them together, then I think he's pretty much saying they will have a hard time trying to beat him. He's a Sannin, a Kage level shinobi. You guys seem to have forgot that. Learn your facts before you say something to me. And also, in the anime, Kisame said, "That man, Jiraiya, is one of the Legendary Sannin. Even the both of us together will have a hard time against someone like him." Directly quoted. Although some of the translations are different, Kisame said it himself in the manga and I already showed you the proof. Too bad. Your point was left invalid.

Darui
04-04-2010, 10:55 PM
Trini your my bro and all but I will debate against you this rare time because you be dissing itachi ! lol


Wrong, it has been shown time and time again that if a fighter is fast enough to trick the Sharingan eye, trying to predict movements is pretty much a waste.

Yes that is true , but unlike sasuke and kakashi who has been shown doing this Itachi has been know not really rely on his sharingan all the time but more important his use of the sharingan is at a higher level. What i picture happening here is that rather trying to read jiraiya moves itachi will basically set up a genjutsu to make j-man use of taijutsu all the more difficult, J man will need to concentrate on finding itachi rather keeping up with him i.e when sasuke and him first fought.

You're giving Itachi way to much credit. Jiraiya would be well prepared for someone of Itachi's caliber. Jiraiya and Itachi have totally different fighting styles. If Jiraiya's Taijutsu can outmaneuver Itachi's counters, then speed or no speed, Itachi would lose. You can't put speed as a benefit to characters who have approximately the same speed and different forms of Taijutsu. That's like Jet Li going up against Bruce Lee. They have totally different styles. Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee) is strictly based on speed and power whereas, Iron Fist and the Praying Mantis styles together (Jet Li) can prove very difficult in getting around its unpredictable strikes. So wrong point on your part. Come again. And you know I'm a Martial Artist so I know a lot about how speed and unpredictability works. Also, one more example. In the Movie, Drunken Master with Jackie Chan, perfect example, in the last fight, Jackie Chan fought a Tae Kwon Do maniac. This dude was insanely fast, and Jackie Chan with unpredictability of the Drunken Boxing tore him apart. Speed doesn't matter especially if your opponent can match your speed.

Okay i can give you the unpredictability factor as a fellow martial artist myself (wing chun , and muay thai) so i know a little bit about what speed and power can do as well which can also basically to overwhelm your opponent. I personally think itachi is more unpredictable than speed and power i.e hidan, kakuzu, pain paths, sasuke , raikage, gai (yes even gai ) these are all fighters who are speed and power. Itachi taijutsu always occur unexpected so he is unpredictable as well and like i said mix this with a genjutsu makes it even more deadly.

That's true, but the same could be said for Jiraiya too, who has more jutsus in his arsenal than Itachi. Also, it was pretty easy to trap Itachi in the esophagus of the Mountain Toad, so what's stopping him from being trapped again? I am well aware that Amaterasu can burn through it, but as long as Jiraiya can keep Itachi guessing in the Toad's stomach, what is Itachi going to do? Spam Amaterasu and waste Chakra? Don't forget that both characters are pretty much around the same stats and Jiraiya has way more experience accompanied by S.M. and a 5 in chakra. Jiraiya would not combat a Sharingan user if he wasn't skilled enough to fight one. Also, his teacher was the 3rd Hokage, which should definitely prove useful in a fight between the two.
to be fair we never seen itachi at a serious fight and we don't know what all jutsu non sharingan related he has in his arsenal. I won't make any assumptions here about what other jutsus he has but i would say this he can overwhelm jiraiya in a straight jutsu fight by throwing jutsu after jutsu at him. I agree Jman has more experience but he is more of a close quarters fighter and itachi has shown skill in both close range and long range .


I do not believe this is generally true and don't forget if Jiraiya is in S.M., I would love to see him get away from Magen Gamarinsho. That was the Genjutsu that the toads used on Pain. Also, Kekkai: Tengai Hojin (The Barrier that is used to detect movements and the position of any enemy that steps within it) will prove useful against Itachi's speed if, and that's a BIG IF, Jiraiya can't keep up with him.

actually we do not if that genjutsu would work on a sharingan user remember when i told if the sharingan evolve from the rinnegan that could mean the rinnegan weaknesses could not be pass down through the process of evolution. We do not how long jman can hold SM we know naruto can hold it longer so again we don't know. honestly i can say that itachi is just going bombard this battlefield with genjutsu after genjutsu so jman better be on his on toes because what happen if he performs the barrier and itachi already cast a genjutsu from the start and right behind him in the barrier?

You are undermining Jiraiya so much right now. He's not that stupid to be caught by a Genjutsu like that. Also, Jiraiya has more experience in dealing with Genjutsu than Naruto and can break out of it with ease. (The finger pointing Genjutsu is still just a regular Genjutsu and not one from the Sharingan, so that will make it all too easy for Jiraiya to get out of it.)

what he is saying not jman is not stupid but itachi genjutsus are minimum A class mostly S class he is the only one in the series who uses genjutsu to such a degree. Breaking out it won't be no easy task and i know jman can but that takes it toll so how many more can he break out of before he summits all itachi needs is just a small window of attack.

Yeah and that's a BIG IF buddy. I'm sure Jiraiya already knows of that tech as it is very common. Also, Kakashi was able to fight on par with Itachi before he used his Tsukiyomi and Kakashi tricked him. If that was the real Itachi, Naruto would've killed him. He straight up fell for Kakashi's Kage Bunshin trick and that is fact. So you're telling me that Itachi with his regular Sharigan would beat Jiraiya? Yeah right.

Agreed here
Again with the assumptions. Why are you limiting Jiraiya so much? He has way more jutsus than Itachi and has jutsus that he can use to trap or trick Itachi. Doton Yomi Numa (Swamp of the underworld) is a perfect example. With perfect timing and execution, this could quickly immobilize Itachi and the fight can easily go into Jiraiya's favor as opposed to your whole Genjutsu talk.
this is true but like i said i doubt itachi has limited techs , as far as we know he could be like kakashi and sasuke have an whole arsenal at his deposal.


I agree with you here, but isn't safe to say that Jiraiya can quickly retreat into a toad, get into S.M. and come out to fight Itachi? It's been done before. We saw when he retreated into the frog and pulled Animal Realm with him. The other Pains couldn't detect his presence nor the presence of the Frog he was in. Again, you're limiting Jiraiya's judgements and prowess a lot. This is exactly why I hate the Sharingan. Fans and noob could easily say anything that the Sharingan could do and think that it would immediately work on skilled ninjas like Jiraiya.


i doubt if itachi was serious he could retreat easily, and Itachi is smart enough to realize not to give jman any time remember it is obvious to anyone that jman is trying to do stall time for something big when prepping SM so here is where Itachi will do whatever it takes to not give him time. And i am sure he can see jman in the toad stomach and can probably kill the toad to get to him.
Really? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/10/

Same thing isn't it? If Kisame could say that he'll be a match for the both of them together, then I think he's pretty much saying they will have a hard time trying to beat him. He's a Sannin, a Kage level shinobi. You guys seem to have forgot that. Learn your facts before you say something to me. And also, in the anime, Kisame said, "That man, Jiraiya, is one of the Legendary Sannin. Even the both of us together will have a hard time against someone like him." Directly quoted. Although some of the translations are different, Kisame said it himself in the manga and I already showed you the proof. Too bad. Your point was left invalid.
i have seen this debate before i stand at the fact that i think itachi was holding back against jman and so was jman holding back, Itachi is S class also a Kage Level ninja. He was wiser than his years , I will admit that is true what kisame said but I can also say that kisame opinion and not itachi's statement.

T-Pein™
04-05-2010, 12:37 AM
Itachi is a genjutsu master while Jiraiya has not shown any defense against genjutsu. So unless Jiraiya shows some way to counter genjutsu at Itachi's level then there is no point in debating this. Itachi wins.




Way to counter Itachi's genjutsu?
How bout not looking at his eyes?
Im pretty sure Jiraiya can do this
He summons the 2 frogs to be his eyes.

Atrum Prophecy
04-05-2010, 11:11 AM
SNIP.

What's up Yellow? Alright man, let's get this show on the road.
I'm not dissing Itachi son. He was one of my favs in the entire show. The only nigga I hate is Sasuke, (as if you didn't already know lolz.) The Sharingan is also my enemy.

Yes that is true , but unlike sasuke and kakashi who has been shown doing this Itachi has been know not really rely on his sharingan all the time but more important his use of the sharingan is at a higher level. What i picture happening here is that rather trying to read jiraiya moves itachi will basically set up a genjutsu to make j-man use of taijutsu all the more difficult, J man will need to concentrate on finding itachi rather keeping up with him i.e when sasuke and him first fought.

You do realize how wrong you are right? Rarely have we ever seen Itachi with his Sharingan turned off. Very RARE. The difference is, Sasuke depends on it for everything, Kakashi depends on it just to augment his fighting styles further and Itachi just uses it to see through deception; but don't forget that he still has it on. So it's still doing everything it does even when he might not be trying to use it. Then again, saying that he may not be trying to use his Sharingan is clearly speculation because Itachi has a way of looking and being cool-headed during a fight. It's plain arrogance though. Uchihas know that their Sharingan could see through almost every Shinobi attacks. I would say that it's all pretty much a front. Sasuke and Itachi always fight with a cool head because they know their Sharingan will do the work for them. Why do you think Deidara hated Itachi? Why do you think Deidara hated Sasuke? He blamed their eyes, saying that they are too prideful of their cursed lineage. Deidara's right; Uchihas are too cocky. (Which is why I hate them) Anyway, Itachi keeps his Sharingan on 94% of the time bro. You have no argument there so debating it any further will just be a slaughter fest. And Itachi will need his Sharingan to fight Jiraiya and that's a fact. Also, you guys are still missing the fact that both these guys admitted that Jiraiya is a tough opponent. Even if Itachi was to somehow pull off a win, it would not be an easy task. You guys are playing my nigga Jiraiya too hard man.

Okay i can give you the unpredictability factor as a fellow martial artist myself (wing chun , and muay thai) so i know a little bit about what speed and power can do as well which can also basically to overwhelm your opponent. I personally think itachi is more unpredictable than speed and power i.e hidan, kakuzu, pain paths, sasuke , raikage, gai (yes even gai ) these are all fighters who are speed and power. Itachi taijutsu always occur unexpected so he is unpredictable as well and like i said mix this with a genjutsu makes it even more deadly.

I never said Itachi was all about power and Speed. If you read my post again, you would see that I was simply making a comparison about Power and Speed as opposed to unpredictability; not that Itachi's fighting style is based on Power and Speed. Also, Jiraiya has both Power, Speed and unpredictability whereas, Itachi's fighting style is more comprehensive to TAI CHI, (Unpredictable and great for using the opponent's strength against them). He let's the opponent attack first, physically, and then decides how to react against them. Straight power and speed is a weakness for any fighter and as a Martial Artist you should know that. In Taijutsu, I really do not see Itachi overwhelming Jiraiya. You keep speaking of Genjutsu, but it is highly unlikely that Jiraiya will be caught by one, especially a Genjutsu from the Sharingan. Jiraiya is better and stronger than Gai and has knowledge over the Sharingan. He has battle experience over Itachi. Jiraiya is not stupid. I'm not saying he will not be caught by one, I'm just saying it is highly unlikely, even if it is coming from Itachi. Jiraiya was going to take on both Kisame and Itachi in that hallway, so you're telling me that Jiraiya was way in over his head and couldn't combat the both of them at the same time? Come on dude, Jiraiya is a beast. Don't play my nigga man. Think about everything that Jiraiya could do first before you just spill Itachi-techs.

to be fair we never seen itachi at a serious fight and we don't know what all jutsu non sharingan related he has in his arsenal. I won't make any assumptions here about what other jutsus he has but i would say this he can overwhelm jiraiya in a straight jutsu fight by throwing jutsu after jutsu at him. I agree Jman has more experience but he is more of a close quarters fighter and itachi has shown skill in both close range and long range .


No offense, but this is nonsense. We know enough to speculate. Itachi has KATON and SUITON elements. That's all we need to know. Then again, I wouldn't expect a man of Itachi's chakra capacity to have much elemental attacks anyway. He will most likely have a few that help his battling skills. Itachi's chakra was so low it's ridiculous and that's also where Jiraiya has a stretch over him. What other non-related jutsus can he possibly have? Also, don't talk about what Itachi could have. We're basing this debate on what we have seen them do already. Straying and speculating is just going to make this debate weak. Whereas, you'll give me the win since I'll have more facts over you.
What? Are you smoking Crack Bro? Itachi will beat Jiraiya in a straight duel of shooting jutsus at each other? Jutsus need chakra. That fight will strictly be based on who has the largest chakra capacity and Jiraiya clearly has the most. A 5/5, clear win bro. And that is not Itachi's style anyway. He will more conserve his chakra and try to find a weakness in his opponent. I do recall when Kisame said they would both have problems fighting him, Itachi said, "It is said that every strong man has a weakness," indicating that Itachi will have to search for Jiraiya's weakness in combat, which I think is the time taken to gather Sage Chakra and acheive S.M. Alot of ppl seem to think that Jiraiya was stupid to draw on S.M. in the open when fighting Pain. But these ppl aren't thinking. Jiraiya was also a very calculating ninja and he also stayed outside to gather information about Animal Realm's jutsus. Notice he realized that he could only use Summons while he was still drawing on S.M. If he hadn't done that, he would pretty much be wasting time in S.M. trying to figure it out. Also, with the three Pain's there, it would've made it all too difficult to be certain. Also, Jiraiya retreated from Pain to build on a strategy. Do you think that Itachi could get away from Jiraiya's S.M. Genjutsu? I don't think so, once you hear it, it's a wrap. Also, Itachi's good at fighting, but he couldn't have overwhelmed Jiraiya as much as Pain did in terms of raw strength and continuous Jutsus. Without the amount of Chakra to regulate his jutsus, Itachi is very limited with what he can do. He makes up for it with exceptional skill and battle senses; it also doesn't slow him down, but he is still limited.
Dude, Itachi becomes a long range fighter only when he casts Genjutsu or uses Amaterasu or Katon Elements. Other than that, he's pretty much a close-range fighter. Jiraiya also has long-range Katon and Doton attacks.


actually we do not if that genjutsu would work on a sharingan user remember when i told if the sharingan evolve from the rinnegan that could mean the rinnegan weaknesses could not be pass down through the process of evolution. We do not how long jman can hold SM we know naruto can hold it longer so again we don't know. honestly i can say that itachi is just going bombard this battlefield with genjutsu after genjutsu so jman better be on his on toes because what happen if he performs the barrier and itachi already cast a genjutsu from the start and right behind him in the barrier?

You are so wrong here. Genjutsu will work on anyone. Regular Genjutsus attack the cerebral nervous system and takes control of the five senses with the pouring of Chakra into the opponent's mind. Jiraiya's Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Singing is a little different. I'll explain; the Sharingan is able to counter Genjutsu because they can see chakra flows. When casting Genjutsu, the user's chakra changes from a flowing pattern to more of a gushing appearance and flow their chakra into the body of the victim. The sharingan will be able to see the flow of chakra before it enters the Uchiha's body and counter it. Whereas, Jiraiya's Genjutsu doesn't use chakra flow. It's strictly sound based. You can visit the Manga or the episode to confirm the truth although you should know this already. With strictly sound and no Chakra to counter, Itachi will be rendered helpless against that Genjutsu. The only downfall to it is the fact that it takes time to muster up. Itachi can exploit this weakness, but Jiraiya is a master of disguise as he was most prominently portrayed as by Sarutobi when he was a kid. Here you go on Shikamaru explaining a little on Genjutsus that are sound based. Although it's not as defined as it should be.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/214/14/


what he is saying not jman is not stupid but itachi genjutsus are minimum A class mostly S class he is the only one in the series who uses genjutsu to such a degree. Breaking out it won't be no easy task and i know jman can but that takes it toll so how many more can he break out of before he summits all itachi needs is just a small window of attack.

I understand this and again, I'm not disagreeing. What I'm saying is that, you guys are making it seem like Jiraiya will allow himself to get caught easily, (not saying that he can't) by Itachi's Genjutsu. It is still highly unlikely that Jiraiya will be caught by one. I'm just being fair in this debate. My argument is that without Susano'o, Itachi has a bigger chance of losing to Jiraiya than Jiraiya has a chance of losing to Itachi and I'll continue to prove it, since it seems I'm the only one fully equipped to debate against debaters who love and worship Itachi and his cheap Sharingan.


i doubt if itachi was serious he could retreat easily, and Itachi is smart enough to realize not to give jman any time remember it is obvious to anyone that jman is trying to do stall time for something big when prepping SM so here is where Itachi will do whatever it takes to not give him time. And i am sure he can see jman in the toad stomach and can probably kill the toad to get to him.

Excuse me? That is simply based off assumptions and full of ridiculousness. Itachi is fast but still not as fast as Raikage. Stop making it seem like Itachi's speed makes him a GOD among other shinobis. He is fast, but we've seen characters with 5/5 in speed, such as Gai, Raikage and Minato. They will destroy Itachi in speed and that's the truth. Jiraiya can retreat into a Toad and completely seal his presence. Even God Realm who can feel vibrations to pin point locations and also see chakra to a certain extent like the Sharingan, not as accurately though, couldn't sense Jiraiya when he retreated. So you're telling me it won't be easy to escape Itachi? Itachi would either try to catch him with his speed or use KATON OR SUITON to stop him. I doubt that he would cast an Amaterasu just to stop an opponent from retreating. That would totally be a waste of chakra. And like I said before, Itachi is not that much faster than Jiraiya. It is even laid out in the data books. It might not be easy to escape Itachi, but Jiraiya will be successful in escaping anyway. And also, there is a high possibility that Itachi knows nothing of Jiraiya's S.M. Even Nagato, who was Jiraiya's student knew nothing about S.M., thus confirming that hardly anyone knew of his achievements. If Jiraiya was to go into S.M., his Taijutsu will be way more effective and way more unpredictable. I think you see where I'm going with this.


this is true but like i said i doubt itachi has limited techs , as far as we know he could be like kakashi and sasuke have an whole arsenal at his deposal.

I agree with you, but it would make no sense for a fighter like Itachi to have MANY jutsus. He is just too conservative. He doesn't have the chakra for it. His chakra is a 2.5 for god sakes. He could hardly use Amaterasu as much as we would want. He used Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi once and had to retreat to regain his strength. Come on Dude.

i have seen this debate before i stand at the fact that i think itachi was holding back against jman and so was jman holding back, Itachi is S class also a Kage Level ninja. He was wiser than his years , I will admit that is true what kisame said but I can also say that kisame opinion and not itachi's statement.

Don't give me that BS man. There you go again, underestimating Jiraiya. For Itachi to say what he said after, that would strongly suggest that Itachi does not know Jiraiya's weakness and will have to fight him to expoit it. And fighting Jiraiya is no easy task. Pain had an edge over Jiraiya simply because Jiraiya didn't have much information. He even went as far as to say that he couldn't have won if Jiraiya knew his secret. And Pain was an incredibly strong force to be reckoned with. Stop playing my boy son. lol

Darui
04-05-2010, 01:34 PM
What's up Yellow? Alright man, let's get this show on the road.
I'm not dissing Itachi son. He was one of my favs in the entire show. The only nigga I hate is Sasuke, (as if you didn't already know lolz.) The Sharingan is also my enemy.



You do realize how wrong you are right? Rarely have we ever seen Itachi with his Sharingan turned off. Very RARE. The difference is, Sasuke depends on it for everything, Kakashi depends on it just to augment his fighting styles further and Itachi just uses it to see through deception; but don't forget that he still has it on. So it's still doing everything it does even when he might not be trying to use it. Then again, saying that he may not be trying to use his Sharingan is clearly speculation because Itachi has a way of looking and being cool-headed during a fight. It's plain arrogance though. Uchihas know that their Sharingan could see through almost every Shinobi attacks. I would say that it's all pretty much a front. Sasuke and Itachi always fight with a cool head because they know their Sharingan will do the work for them. Why do you think Deidara hated Itachi? Why do you think Deidara hated Sasuke? He blamed their eyes, saying that they are too prideful of their cursed lineage. Deidara's right; Uchihas are too cocky. (Which is why I hate them) Anyway, Itachi keeps his Sharingan on 94% of the time bro. You have no argument there so debating it any further will just be a slaughter fest. And Itachi will need his Sharingan to fight Jiraiya and that's a fact. Also, you guys are still missing the fact that both these guys admitted that Jiraiya is a tough opponent. Even if Itachi was to somehow pull off a win, it would not be an easy task. You guys are playing my nigga Jiraiya too hard man.



I never said Itachi was all about power and Speed. If you read my post again, you would see that I was simply making a comparison about Power and Speed as opposed to unpredictability; not that Itachi's fighting style is based on Power and Speed. Also, Jiraiya has both Power, Speed and unpredictability whereas, Itachi's fighting style is more comprehensive to TAI CHI, (Unpredictable and great for using the opponent's strength against them). He let's the opponent attack first, physically, and then decides how to react against them. Straight power and speed is a weakness for any fighter and as a Martial Artist you should know that. In Taijutsu, I really do not see Itachi overwhelming Jiraiya. You keep speaking of Genjutsu, but it is highly unlikely that Jiraiya will be caught by one, especially a Genjutsu from the Sharingan. Jiraiya is better and stronger than Gai and has knowledge over the Sharingan. He has battle experience over Itachi. Jiraiya is not stupid. I'm not saying he will not be caught by one, I'm just saying it is highly unlikely, even if it is coming from Itachi. Jiraiya was going to take on both Kisame and Itachi in that hallway, so you're telling me that Jiraiya was way in over his head and couldn't combat the both of them at the same time? Come on dude, Jiraiya is a beast. Don't play my nigga man. Think about everything that Jiraiya could do first before you just spill Itachi-techs.



No offense, but this is nonsense. We know enough to speculate. Itachi has KATON and SUITON elements. That's all we need to know. Then again, I wouldn't expect a man of Itachi's chakra capacity to have much elemental attacks anyway. He will most likely have a few that help his battling skills. Itachi's chakra was so low it's ridiculous and that's also where Jiraiya has a stretch over him. What other non-related jutsus can he possibly have? Also, don't talk about what Itachi could have. We're basing this debate on what we have seen them do already. Straying and speculating is just going to make this debate weak. Whereas, you'll give me the win since I'll have more facts over you.
What? Are you smoking Crack Bro? Itachi will beat Jiraiya in a straight duel of shooting jutsus at each other? Jutsus need chakra. That fight will strictly be based on who has the largest chakra capacity and Jiraiya clearly has the most. A 5/5, clear win bro. And that is not Itachi's style anyway. He will more conserve his chakra and try to find a weakness in his opponent. I do recall when Kisame said they would both have problems fighting him, Itachi said, "It is said that every strong man has a weakness," indicating that Itachi will have to search for Jiraiya's weakness in combat, which I think is the time taken to gather Sage Chakra and acheive S.M. Alot of ppl seem to think that Jiraiya was stupid to draw on S.M. in the open when fighting Pain. But these ppl aren't thinking. Jiraiya was also a very calculating ninja and he also stayed outside to gather information about Animal Realm's jutsus. Notice he realized that he could only use Summons while he was still drawing on S.M. If he hadn't done that, he would pretty much be wasting time in S.M. trying to figure it out. Also, with the three Pain's there, it would've made it all too difficult to be certain. Also, Jiraiya retreated from Pain to build on a strategy. Do you think that Itachi could get away from Jiraiya's S.M. Genjutsu? I don't think so, once you hear it, it's a wrap. Also, Itachi's good at fighting, but he couldn't have overwhelmed Jiraiya as much as Pain did in terms of raw strength and continuous Jutsus. Without the amount of Chakra to regulate his jutsus, Itachi is very limited with what he can do. He makes up for it with exceptional skill and battle senses; it also doesn't slow him down, but he is still limited.
Dude, Itachi becomes a long range fighter only when he casts Genjutsu or uses Amaterasu or Katon Elements. Other than that, he's pretty much a close-range fighter. Jiraiya also has long-range Katon and Doton attacks.




You are so wrong here. Genjutsu will work on anyone. Regular Genjutsus attack the cerebral nervous system and takes control of the five senses with the pouring of Chakra into the opponent's mind. Jiraiya's Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Singing is a little different. I'll explain; the Sharingan is able to counter Genjutsu because they can see chakra flows. When casting Genjutsu, the user's chakra changes from a flowing pattern to more of a gushing appearance and flow their chakra into the body of the victim. The sharingan will be able to see the flow of chakra before it enters the Uchiha's body and counter it. Whereas, Jiraiya's Genjutsu doesn't use chakra flow. It's strictly sound based. You can visit the Manga or the episode to confirm the truth although you should know this already. With strictly sound and no Chakra to counter, Itachi will be rendered helpless against that Genjutsu. The only downfall to it is the fact that it takes time to muster up. Itachi can exploit this weakness, but Jiraiya is a master of disguise as he was most prominently portrayed as by Sarutobi when he was a kid.



I understand this and again, I'm not disagreeing. What I'm saying is that, you guys are making it seem like Jiraiya will allow himself to get caught easily, (not saying that he can't) by Itachi's Genjutsu. It is still highly unlikely that Jiraiya will be caught by one. I'm just being fair in this debate. My argument is that without Susano'o, Itachi has a bigger chance of losing to Jiraiya than Jiraiya has a chance of losing to Itachi and I'll continue to prove it, since it seems I'm the only one fully equipped to debate against debaters who love and worship Itachi and his cheap Sharingan.



Excuse me? That is simply based off assumptions and full of ridiculousness. Itachi is fast but still not as fast as Raikage. Stop making it seem like Itachi's speed makes him a GOD among other shinobis. He is fast, but we've seen characters with 5/5 in speed, such as Gai, Raikage and Minato. They will destroy Itachi in speed and that's the truth. Jiraiya can retreat into a Toad and completely seal his presence. Even God Realm who can feel vibrations to pin point locations and also see chakra to a certain extent like the Sharingan, not as accurately though, couldn't sense Jiraiya when he retreated. So you're telling me it won't be easy to escape Itachi? Itachi would either try to catch him with his speed or use KATON OR SUITON to stop him. I doubt that he would cast an Amaterasu just to stop an opponent from retreating. That would totally be a waste of chakra. And like I said before, Itachi is not that much faster than Jiraiya. It is even laid out in the data books. It might not be easy to escape Itachi, but Jiraiya will be successful in escaping anyway. And also, there is a high possibility that Itachi knows nothing of Jiraiya's S.M. Even Nagato, who was Jiraiya's student knew nothing about S.M., thus confirming that hardly anyone knew of his achievements. If Jiraiya was to go into S.M., his Taijutsu will be way more effective and way more unpredictable. I think you see where I'm going with this.



I agree with you, but it would make no sense for a fighter like Itachi to have MANY jutsus. He is just too conservative. He doesn't have the chakra for it. His chakra is a 2.5 for god sakes. He could hardly use Amaterasu as much as we would want. He used Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi once and had to retreat to regain his strength. Come on Dude.



Don't give me that BS man. There you go again, underestimating Jiraiya. For Itachi to say what he said after, that would strongly suggest that Itachi does not know Jiraiya's weakness and will have to fight him to expoit it. And fighting Jiraiya is no easy task. Pain had an edge over Jiraiya simply because Jiraiya didn't have much information. He even went as far as to say that he couldn't have won if Jiraiya knew his secret. And Pain was an incredibly strong force to be reckoned with. Stop playing my boy son. lol
I keep saying genjutsu because i refuse to debate using MS techs if i did and say he uses this for every single time it be called spamming and i would be indirectly comparing him to sasuke. So yeah i will admit defeat here , until i see itachi uses other non sharingan tech because i know he always has his on but in my own opinion he does not rely on it at all its just there in case he needs it.
As far as the summoning the SM i agree pain did not know what SM was but he did know whatever jman was trying to bring out would be badass and he immediately knew he had to try break him out of it.

Atrum Prophecy
04-05-2010, 03:48 PM
I keep saying genjutsu because i refuse to debate using MS techs if i did and say he uses this for every single time it be called spamming and i would be indirectly comparing him to sasuke. So yeah i will admit defeat here , until i see itachi uses other non sharingan tech because i know he always has his on but in my own opinion he does not rely on it at all its just there in case he needs it.
As far as the summoning the SM i agree pain did not know what SM was but he did know whatever jman was trying to bring out would be badass and he immediately knew he had to try break him out of it.

True. Who's next? 7th Faith? Ikimichi? What up?

Dream Walker
04-05-2010, 07:55 PM
Wrong, it has been shown time and time again that if a fighter is fast enough to trick the Sharingan eye, trying to predict movements is pretty much a waste.



You're giving Itachi way to much credit. Jiraiya would be well prepared for someone of Itachi's caliber. Jiraiya and Itachi have totally different fighting styles. If Jiraiya's Taijutsu can outmaneuver Itachi's counters, then speed or no speed, Itachi would lose. You can't put speed as a benefit to characters who have approximately the same speed and different forms of Taijutsu. That's like Jet Li going up against Bruce Lee. They have totally different styles. Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee) is strictly based on speed and power whereas, Iron Fist and the Praying Mantis styles together (Jet Li) can prove very difficult in getting around its unpredictable strikes. So wrong point on your part. Come again. And you know I'm a Martial Artist so I know a lot about how speed and unpredictability works. Also, one more example. In the Movie, Drunken Master with Jackie Chan, perfect example, in the last fight, Jackie Chan fought a Tae Kwon Do maniac. This dude was insanely fast, and Jackie Chan with unpredictability of the Drunken Boxing tore him apart. Speed doesn't matter especially if your opponent can match your speed.



That's true, but the same could be said for Jiraiya too, who has more jutsus in his arsenal than Itachi. Also, it was pretty easy to trap Itachi in the esophagus of the Mountain Toad, so what's stopping him from being trapped again? I am well aware that Amaterasu can burn through it, but as long as Jiraiya can keep Itachi guessing in the Toad's stomach, what is Itachi going to do? Spam Amaterasu and waste Chakra? Don't forget that both characters are pretty much around the same stats and Jiraiya has way more experience accompanied by S.M. and a 5 in chakra. Jiraiya would not combat a Sharingan user if he wasn't skilled enough to fight one. Also, his teacher was the 3rd Hokage, which should definitely prove useful in a fight between the two.



I do not believe this is generally true and don't forget if Jiraiya is in S.M., I would love to see him get away from Magen Gamarinsho. That was the Genjutsu that the toads used on Pain. Also, Kekkai: Tengai Hojin (The Barrier that is used to detect movements and the position of any enemy that steps within it) will prove useful against Itachi's speed if, and that's a BIG IF, Jiraiya can't keep up with him.



You are undermining Jiraiya so much right now. He's not that stupid to be caught by a Genjutsu like that. Also, Jiraiya has more experience in dealing with Genjutsu than Naruto and can break out of it with ease. (The finger pointing Genjutsu is still just a regular Genjutsu and not one from the Sharingan, so that will make it all too easy for Jiraiya to get out of it.)



Yeah and that's a BIG IF buddy. I'm sure Jiraiya already knows of that tech as it is very common. Also, Kakashi was able to fight on par with Itachi before he used his Tsukiyomi and Kakashi tricked him. If that was the real Itachi, Naruto would've killed him. He straight up fell for Kakashi's Kage Bunshin trick and that is fact. So you're telling me that Itachi with his regular Sharigan would beat Jiraiya? Yeah right.



Again with the assumptions. Why are you limiting Jiraiya so much? He has way more jutsus than Itachi and has jutsus that he can use to trap or trick Itachi. Doton Yomi Numa (Swamp of the underworld) is a perfect example. With perfect timing and execution, this could quickly immobilize Itachi and the fight can easily go into Jiraiya's favor as opposed to your whole Genjutsu talk.



I agree with you here, but isn't safe to say that Jiraiya can quickly retreat into a toad, get into S.M. and come out to fight Itachi? It's been done before. We saw when he retreated into the frog and pulled Animal Realm with him. The other Pains couldn't detect his presence nor the presence of the Frog he was in. Again, you're limiting Jiraiya's judgements and prowess a lot. This is exactly why I hate the Sharingan. Fans and noob could easily say anything that the Sharingan could do and think that it would immediately work on skilled ninjas like Jiraiya.



Really? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/10/

Same thing isn't it? If Kisame could say that he'll be a match for the both of them together, then I think he's pretty much saying they will have a hard time trying to beat him. He's a Sannin, a Kage level shinobi. You guys seem to have forgot that. Learn your facts before you say something to me. And also, in the anime, Kisame said, "That man, Jiraiya, is one of the Legendary Sannin. Even the both of us together will have a hard time against someone like him." Directly quoted. Although some of the translations are different, Kisame said it himself in the manga and I already showed you the proof. Too bad. Your point was left invalid.

I will answer Paragraph by paragraph...

Lol, yes, if the fighter is fast enough to trick the sharingan. Is Jiraiya that fast Trini? The sharingan can track movements much faster then it's user ( in most cases ) can move. Itachi is faster then Jiraiya, and itachi's sharingan can track movements faster then he can move him self. So in terms of movments, Jiraiya cannot trick the Itachi's sharingan.

I give Itachi as much credit as he deserves Trini.Of course I can put speed as a benifit because if I didn't, that would be saying that it's a fact that Itachi is not faster then Jiraiya when he infact is. Yes Jiraiya and Itachi have different fighting styles but which one is more well versed in battle? I will go with itachi, for every fight he has been in, when have we ever seen his true stength? Itachi is the type to analize and predict before making any moves, he's about his tactics more then actual fighting. Since we are talking about the diffrence in their Tai-Jutsu, how do you assume that Jiraiya's is better then Itachi's? We have seen both Their hand to hand combat and Itachi moves with much more swiftness and is very agile in battle. You seemed to have thinked that you have proved a point by listing other people's fighting styles. List Itachi's and Jiraiya's then tell me whom is better. I get what you are saying, and it's true, but not fully in this case. You talked about Jakie chan being unpredictable with the dunking boxing, but would that have been unpredictable to the sharingan? Whether the moves are unpredictable because they are fast, aglie or swift, the sharingan can keep up with all of these. Whether they are seprate or together. It depends on whom is facing the sharingan and Jiraiya with his hand to hand combat skill cannot beat Itachi in hand to hand combat. This is Itachi we are talking about. Once again I will say that Jiraiya's speed cannot match Itachi's, it can keep up. The fact that Jiraiya is slower then Itachi would benifit him and his sharingan having track movements that are slower then he him self.

Well look how Itachi got trapped in the toads stomach. He was focused on Sasuke when the Jutsu was let off, and he was a distance away from Jiraiya.
In a 1 on 1 fight, Jiraiya would have to gain that distance. Not luck out because Itachi is focused on something more important. spam amaterasu? He would only have to use it once, don't forget that Amaterasu continues to burn. Orochimaruy had experience over Itachi as well but still couldn't beat Itachi in battle. From what we have seen, Itachi has taken on some of the strongest ninja and wasn't trying to his full potential. the 3rd taught Jiraiya and Madara was Itachi's teacher as well.

Thats if Jiraiya gets into Sage mode. As far as that barier goes, it can ver wel be a waste of chakra seeing as Itachi doesn't have to enter it. He can keep his distance and attack with fire jutsu. further more, all the jutsu does is detect any movement in the barrier, it does not effect Jiraiyas speed or reaction time. He used it because he couldn't see pain, because pain was using the comillion ( dont know how to spell it ) he summoned to camouflage him self. So like I said, that jutsu could very well be a waste of chakra.

What was so dumb about Naruto geting cought by the finger point Jutsu. ( this is so amature lol, we really need to find out the jutsu's name ) Naruto knew he could look into itachis eyes so he needed to look else where. How could he have known Itachi was going to get him the way he did. Also, remember that you do not see A Genjtsu coming, it can effect you from where ever the user decides to unleash it. If Itachi times it right and makes it strong enough Jiraiya won't be able to stop it. It's a matter of chakra control at this point and Itachi has that over Jiraiya. Him being a genjutsu master alone would show this. and the fact that Jiraiya cannot even do sage mode without help because he lack the chakra control to do so.

Jiriaya catching Itachi in that swamp? Very doubtful. Itachi would be able to track his hand signs before he even does them, and react accordingly. Like I said before, Itachi is quicker at hand seals. He would have to do some serious diversionary tactics to unleash that tech and hope to catch Itachi in it.

I cannot combat this last paragraph to me because I am unaware as to how he even got in that toad in the first place lol. If I knew, im sure there is a way around it. When he cam out of that toad he still made sure to keep his distance regardless. And what really makes me wonder is, even though Jiraiya was in sage mode, He still had to fight them one on one because they shared a field of vision, allowing them to see how and where they will be striked. When facing a sharingan user, This is oftin the case with them, to flee if it is one on one because your win is most uncertain. Jiriaya fighting Pains field of vision and fighting the sharingan ( Itachis ) would be ruffly the same thing. Itachi will know where and when Jiraiya would stroke (most of the time if not all). If Jiraiya needed to fight them one on one because of this, how will he do against Itachi whom is already one person but can fight knowing his enemys movements. This is the reason why he needed to fight pain one on one so how would he escape this fact from itachi? pluck out his sharingan lol.

Hmm and another thing. I thought you wrote it to me, but i guess I glanced at it in a post you wrote to someone else. concerning the fact that Kakashi was on par with Itachi during the rescue garra arc, well he wasn't on par with itachi because that was a jutsu only used as a diversionary tactic, not to search and kill. It is also safe to say that Itachi was not trying to kill in that fight because he had a chance to kill kakashi before but he didn't want to. Along with that Jutsu you should also be reminded that Itachi didn't even put half his chakra into that jutsu. Furthermore, Itachi said he cannot take Itachi by him self before the fight even begun.

Kurama
04-05-2010, 09:31 PM
How do you know itachi is that much smarter than jiraiya? Jiraiya's no idiot, we've seen his skills in gathering information in his fight against pain. What makes you think he can't do the same thing against itachi? We have absolutely no proof showing itachi is way smarter than jiraiya (or even smarter than jiraiya). That's the only ridiculous statement here.

Gathering information does not prove great intellect.
It is implied that Jiraiya is only above average in intelligence while Itachi is a genius.

Ok, than if jiraiya finds a way out of his genjutsu this match is over? Because you don't seem to have an answer for anything else I stated, like jiraiya's clearly larger variety of kage level jutsu.

You have no proof that Jiraiya can use more high level techniques than Itachi.
Having a huge variety of techniques does not mean that you will win. Look at Orochimaru.

Like atrium prophecy said, he could just hide in one of his toads while setting up for SM. How would itachi follow him?

Because Jiraiya would have to summon the frog first? Jiraiya needs to use handseals in order to summon the frog. You are assuming that Jiraiya is faster than Itachi. You are also assuming that SM will end the fight.

I am assuming that both opponents just randomly met up somewhere
Orochimaru doesn't have jiraiya's willpower. I trust jiraiya to find a way out of itachi's genjutsu, if he does that game over.

Your opinion does not decide what happens unless you make your own fanfic. You have no grounds to compare their willpowers. Also, willpower has not shown that it can help you escape genjutsu. You are assuming that Itachi can only use genjutsu to fight Jiraiya.

Wrong, it has been shown time and time again that if a fighter is fast enough to trick the Sharingan eye, trying to predict movements is pretty much a waste.

Since when has the sharingan been "tricked"? The eyes can follow what the body cannot. That does not mean the sharingan was tricked.

You're giving Itachi way to much credit. Jiraiya would be well prepared for someone of Itachi's caliber. Jiraiya and Itachi have totally different fighting styles. If Jiraiya's Taijutsu can outmaneuver Itachi's counters, then speed or no speed, Itachi would lose. You can't put speed as a benefit to characters who have approximately the same speed and different forms of Taijutsu. That's like Jet Li going up against Bruce Lee. They have totally different styles. Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee) is strictly based on speed and power whereas, Iron Fist and the Praying Mantis styles together (Jet Li) can prove very difficult in getting around its unpredictable strikes. So wrong point on your part. Come again. And you know I'm a Martial Artist so I know a lot about how speed and unpredictability works. Also, one more example. In the Movie, Drunken Master with Jackie Chan, perfect example, in the last fight, Jackie Chan fought a Tae Kwon Do maniac. This dude was insanely fast, and Jackie Chan with unpredictability of the Drunken Boxing tore him apart. Speed doesn't matter especially if your opponent can match your speed.

You are assuming that Jiraiya is prepared for Itachi. If you can say that then I can say that Itachi is prepared to fight someone like Jiraiya. See where this is going? You Jiraiya fans always say Jiraiya is ready for anything that "blah blah" has to offer. Guess what I can say the same for Itachi.

If itachi out maneuvers Jiraiya then Itachi can win as well. Your points are very weak.

Its like saying.... if person A can out maneuver person B then person A can win. The same can be said about person B.

We do not know who is faster.

Comparing to normal humans fighting each other to superhumans fighting each other? Just no.

Itachi has a fast body and the sharingan while Jiraiya just has a fast body.

I cannot prove that Itachi is faster, but Itachi statistically has the edge.

That's true, but the same could be said for Jiraiya too, who has more jutsus in his arsenal than Itachi. Also, it was pretty easy to trap Itachi in the esophagus of the Mountain Toad, so what's stopping him from being trapped again? I am well aware that Amaterasu can burn through it, but as long as Jiraiya can keep Itachi guessing in the Toad's stomach, what is Itachi going to do? Spam Amaterasu and waste Chakra? Don't forget that both characters are pretty much around the same stats and Jiraiya has way more experience accompanied by S.M. and a 5 in chakra. Jiraiya would not combat a Sharingan user if he wasn't skilled enough to fight one. Also, his teacher was the 3rd Hokage, which should definitely prove useful in a fight between the two.

You are assuming Jiraiya has more techniques than Itachi. Also, quantity is not always better than quality.

What makes you think that Jiraiya will live long enough to use the esophagus? What makes you think they are in the proper environment for that technique? What makes you think that Jiraiya is going to even bother using that technique?

Stop mentioning the databook. Seriously. The databook is a load of crap. I already showed you (a while ago) that if one character has a 3 and the other has a 2... the 2 can be just as fast as the 3. Do you know why? Because the databook is useless for stats. There are no solid, useful stats on both characters.

So Jiraiya would only fight a sharingan user if he knew he could win? Orochimaru thought he could win against a sharingan user and he lost. So that point is invalid. Itachi isn't a regular sharingan user anyway. Show me where Jiraiya's confidence in himself was justice? I will list them....

Jiraiya vs Orochimaru. (technically) Winner Orochimaru.
Jiraiya vs Pain. Winner Pain.

He was fully confident and still lost.

Just because the 3rd was his teacher does not mean he would win.


I do not believe this is generally true and don't forget if Jiraiya is in S.M., I would love to see him get away from Magen Gamarinsho. That was the Genjutsu that the toads used on Pain. Also, Kekkai: Tengai Hojin (The Barrier that is used to detect movements and the position of any enemy that steps within it) will prove useful against Itachi's speed if, and that's a BIG IF, Jiraiya can't keep up with him.

We do not know if he would be able to get into sage mode while fighting Itachi.

We do not know the limitations of the barrier so it is pointless to assume anything about the barrier. Also, we do not know if Jiraiya needs to keep his hands to together in order to keep the barrier up.

You are undermining Jiraiya so much right now. He's not that stupid to be caught by a Genjutsu like that. Also, Jiraiya has more experience in dealing with Genjutsu than Naruto and can break out of it with ease. (The finger pointing Genjutsu is still just a regular Genjutsu and not one from the Sharingan, so that will make it all too easy for Jiraiya to get out of it.)

You are assuming again. Orochimaru is far more intelligent than Jiraiya and he was caught in a genjutsu. So you have no grounds to say that Jiraiya will not be caught in a genjutsu. Having more experience dealing with genjutsu than Naruro does not prove that much. "The finger pointing Genjutsu is still just a regular Genjutsu and not one from the Sharingan, so that will make it all too easy for Jiraiya to get out of it." That is hyperbole. You have no proof that Jiraiya can break out of genjutsus with ease. Jiraiya has no genjutsu countering feats.

Yeah and that's a BIG IF buddy. I'm sure Jiraiya already knows of that tech as it is very common. Also, Kakashi was able to fight on par with Itachi before he used his Tsukiyomi and Kakashi tricked him. If that was the real Itachi, Naruto would've killed him. He straight up fell for Kakashi's Kage Bunshin trick and that is fact. So you're telling me that Itachi with his regular Sharigan would beat Jiraiya? Yeah right.

Tsukuyomi is not a common technique. I do not understand why on earth you would think it is. If it was common then we would see more than only two people using it the entire series. Jiraiya has not shown anything that can counter Tsukuyomi.

Kakashi even admitted that Itachi was not even trying during their fight. Kakashi was trying to get rid of Itachi while Itachi was not even trying to kill Kakashi.

Falling for a shadow clone trick was no big deal since Itachi still achieved what he was trying to do. Which was to buy time. Itachi was not trying to kill them so he was obviously not fighting seriously. Plus, why would he care if he lost that fight? It was not his body.

Again with the assumptions. Why are you limiting Jiraiya so much? He has way more jutsus than Itachi and has jutsus that he can use to trap or trick Itachi. Doton Yomi Numa (Swamp of the underworld) is a perfect example. With perfect timing and execution, this could quickly immobilize Itachi and the fight can easily go into Jiraiya's favor as opposed to your whole Genjutsu talk.

You are the one limiting Itachi. More assumptions... Itachi can have techniques to trap and trick Jiraiya as well. Itachi could have a counter for the swamp so your assuming isn't getting you anyway.

I agree with you here, but isn't safe to say that Jiraiya can quickly retreat into a toad, get into S.M. and come out to fight Itachi? It's been done before. We saw when he retreated into the frog and pulled Animal Realm with him. The other Pains couldn't detect his presence nor the presence of the Frog he was in. Again, you're limiting Jiraiya's judgements and prowess a lot. This is exactly why I hate the Sharingan. Fans and noob could easily say anything that the Sharingan could do and think that it would immediately work on skilled ninjas like Jiraiya.

Isn't it safe to say that Itachi uses to Susanoo to stab Jiraiya and absorb him into the gourd before he can counter? It's been done before.

You are also limiting Itachi's prowess and judgements.

The point is that the sharingan can work on ninjas like Jiraiya.

The sharingan has shown its capabilities... Jiraiya is a human and the sharingan CAN work on him.

Really? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/10/

Same thing isn't it? If Kisame could say that he'll be a match for the both of them together, then I think he's pretty much saying they will have a hard time trying to beat him. He's a Sannin, a Kage level shinobi. You guys seem to have forgot that. Learn your facts before you say something to me. And also, in the anime, Kisame said, "That man, Jiraiya, is one of the Legendary Sannin. Even the both of us together will have a hard time against someone like him." Directly quoted. Although some of the translations are different, Kisame said it himself in the manga and I already showed you the proof. Too bad. Your point was left invalid.

They did not say the words...He will give us a hard time. Kisame said that he "might" be a match for them. Kisame "might" have implied it, but his opinion has not proven to be worth much. He is also basing this off of Jiraiya's reputation. Reputation! Anyone can overestimate someone because of their reputation. You need to learn your facts.

The anime is not canon so please do not even quote the anime. You need to learn your facts.

Also, Itachi's opinion > Kisame's opinion.

Basing an argument on Kisame's word? Lol? Your arguments are invalid and full of hyperbole.

Do not forget that Itachi was hiding his true intentions and even possibly his true powers from Kisame. Also, we have never seen Itachi fight at full health or seriously. So anymore speculation is pointless. :/

Atrum Prophecy
04-05-2010, 11:22 PM
First off, are you basing your assumptions on what you see in the anime or based on true facts? If they say Jiraiya is a 4.5/5 in Speed, why would you ask such a question? Yes, Jiraiya is that fast and equipped to do such a thing. Look at Kakashi. He has been displayed as a very fast character in the series and his speed is also a 4.5/5. So what up? What are you trying to say? If Kakashi can outsmart Itachi, and Jiraiya is WAYYYY more skilled than Kakashi, why can't Jiraiya do the same thing? You're not making sense. The eye can only follow movements it could see in a straight line, don't give me that nonsense. That is why unpredictability eliminates the Sharingan's senses of following movement. Please call my bluff and tell me I'm wrong. You know this.

I give Itachi as much credit as he deserves Trini.Of course I can put speed as a benifit because if I didn't, that would be saying that it's a fact that Itachi is not faster then Jiraiya when he infact is. Yes Jiraiya and Itachi have different fighting styles but which one is more well versed in battle? I will go with itachi, for every fight he has been in, when have we ever seen his true stength? Itachi is the type to analize and predict before making any moves, he's about his tactics more then actual fighting. Since we are talking about the diffrence in their Tai-Jutsu, how do you assume that Jiraiya's is better then Itachi's? We have seen both Their hand to hand combat and Itachi moves with much more swiftness and is very agile in battle. You seemed to have thinked that you have proved a point by listing other people's fighting styles. List Itachi's and Jiraiya's then tell me whom is better. I get what you are saying, and it's true, but not fully in this case. You talked about Jakie chan being unpredictable with the dunking boxing, but would that have been unpredictable to the sharingan? Whether the moves are unpredictable because they are fast, aglie or swift, the sharingan can keep up with all of these. Whether they are seprate or together. It depends on whom is facing the sharingan and Jiraiya with his hand to hand combat skill cannot beat Itachi in hand to hand combat. This is Itachi we are talking about. Once again I will say that Jiraiya's speed cannot match Itachi's, it can keep up. The fact that Jiraiya is slower then Itachi would benifit him and his sharingan having track movements that are slower then he him self.

No you don't, you give him too much and I don't blame you because Kishi has made Itachi seem like such a god in the series it's almost funny. I'll prove to you why you're wrong. Itachi's speed can definitely be put into perspective, but you're making it seem like his speed is ridiculously better than Jiraiya's and stated in the data books, you're dead wrong. It's amazing how the proof is right there in your eye and you're still arguing about Itachi's speed. Really? Then you're going to be saying that till the debate is spinning in circles like you did in our debate about Sasuke. It's cool though, I'll run them circles with you this time. I would have to go with Jiraiya on this. Itachi is well equipped, but he lacks power. Itachi isn't a "strength" character, he's more of a fast, maneuvering RAT that waits for his opponent to attack. The only reason why Itachi does that is simply because he has the Sharingan. The Sharingan can do anything for him. I am telling you that he will not be so calm if he fights Jiraiya. I guarantee it. Jiraiya kicked Pain's Kuchiyoses in the face with enough force to knock them back also with his speed augmenting his unpredicatable movements, Itachi will still be able to see through his attacks with ease? Highly unlikely. Also, Itachi would have a hard time if they are land based, Jiraiya has the edge based on the fact that he is a Doton wielder and most of his attacks are proned to land. He is very accurate with it as is shown in the manga. PROOF all over the place DH. You know for a fact that Jiraiya is a type of fighter that likes to overwhelm his character with traps on the battlefield by either summoning Kuchiyoses or using Doton attacks that are very much unpredictable. Don't do that, don't talk about Itachi's unseen strenght because that will bring about too much speculations and you will spoil the debate. Stick on everything that they could do now in the manga, Plz. And when has Itachi ever fought a character as strong as Jiraiya? Exactly, so the words are rubbish. I never said Jiraiya's TaiJutsu is better than Itachi's don't put words in my mouth. If they both fight, Itachi would not be able to catch Jiraiya as easily as other characters. Also, if we're speaking about overwhelming strength, I don't have to tell you who would come out on top. Exactly, Itachi does move swift and agile, because their styles are DIFFERENT. That's like a Capoeira fighter fighting a Tae Kwon Do fighter. The Capoeira fighter has smoother reflexes and attacks than a straight up kicking, fanatic like the Tae Kwon Do fighter who uses nothing but wild, yet coordinated kicks to take down his opponent. The wild kicking fighter can still take the win if he can trick the smooth, agile Capoeira fighter, so what's your point? Are you saying because Itachi is more swift and agile, it would assure him victory? WRONG. Yes, of course drunking boxing is unpredictable to the Sharingan, what are you talking about? You've seen Killer Bee fight unpredictably with his swords and tore Sasuke apart even though he had his Sharingan. What's your point here? You're not making any sense and totally contradicting the power of the Sharingan. Realize that the characters that have fought the Sharingan who has predictable movements, like lee, whose fighting is very straight forward have all been countered. Otherwise ninjas like Killer Bee's attacks were not even seen and was totally unpredictable. Raikage, another man who uses NINTAIJUTSU and whose moves are unpredictable yet powerful, couldn't even be touched by the Sharingan. Unpredictability is always a measure of importance when fighting an Uchiha. Contradictory to its fullest. You yourself agreed in your own post and saw in the manga and anime that unpredictability (a fighter who is fast and can trick the Sharingan) whether it be with Taijutsu, swords or what, wins over the Sharingan almost every time and now you're saying whether moves are predictable added with agility and speed, the Sharingan will still be able to see through it? lolz. Whatever dude. You lost your bearings in that paragraph buddy. You're just mumbling now. Try to stay on track DH, you're showing signs of weakness and I'm not saying that to be mean, rather for you to check yourself if you want to win this debate. I believe he can dude. Jiraiya has shown how beastly his fighting style can be. Don't play my dude son. Yes, but again, even though the Sharigan can predict moves faster than the Uchiha using it, unpredictability still beats it. You have seen this many times during the series DH. Anyone could tell you that. You're being ignorant now dude. Seriously. I love Itachi, but he is not a God man.

Well look how Itachi got trapped in the toads stomach. He was focused on Sasuke when the Jutsu was let off, and he was a distance away from Jiraiya.
In a 1 on 1 fight, Jiraiya would have to gain that distance. Not luck out because Itachi is focused on something more important. spam amaterasu? He would only have to use it once, don't forget that Amaterasu continues to burn. Orochimaruy had experience over Itachi as well but still couldn't beat Itachi in battle. From what we have seen, Itachi has taken on some of the strongest ninja and wasn't trying to his full potential. the 3rd taught Jiraiya and Madara was Itachi's teacher as well.

So what? Look how fast the Jutsu was set and look how unpredictable it is again. Itachi could read hand signs but he can't read hand signs that he doesn't know. And that is a fact. That jutsu will catch anyone off guard. Anybody. Dude, Jiraiya doesn't need distance, I recall Kisame standing right there when it happened. Itachi cannot fight Jiraiya within his own surroundings and we know for a fact that Jiraiya can make distance between them. You know that. Itachi is not that much faster than Jiraiya dude, I don't care how many times you say it. Lolz. That's IF he catches him with Amaterasu son. Jiraiya already knows about Amaterasu. Also, if Jiraiya's in SM, I'm sorry, but standing there trying to catch someone with that much speed is almost retarded. Dude, Orochimaru was a fool who tried to attack Itachi right in front his face with a snake and looked directly into his eye when he turned around. Are you kidding me? Of course he'll be pwned. And that's where the author uses a method called, "positioning of the protagonist" That means that the author will give the edge to a character that he wants to give glory to for the moment, even if it is an unfair circumstance. I'm a Storyboard manager, trust me, I know. Plus if Itachi and Orochimaru was fighting for real, head to head, based on techs, the only way Itachi was beating Orochimaru is with Genjutsu and Susano'o's sword of Totsuka. The guy was immortal, a genius just like Itachi, and knew about the Sharingan. Come on, look how stupidly he was caught by Itachi. The Sharingan is totally unfair and Kishi promotes this like it's a payday.

Thats if Jiraiya gets into Sage mode. As far as that barier goes, it can ver wel be a waste of chakra seeing as Itachi doesn't have to enter it. He can keep his distance and attack with fire jutsu. further more, all the jutsu does is detect any movement in the barrier, it does not effect Jiraiyas speed or reaction time. He used it because he couldn't see pain, because pain was using the comillion ( dont know how to spell it ) he summoned to camouflage him self. So like I said, that jutsu could very well be a waste of chakra.


Lolz, that barrier doesn't waste chakra. And also, I was combating what you said about Itachi's "amazing Speed" psssshhhhh. (Whatever) Also, Jiraiya has a very high chance of going into SM. Don't forget that he can reverse Summon himself immediately into a frog. He doesn't have to stick out and fight Itachi like he did Pain dude, because unlike Pain, he knows about the Sharingan, Geez. Stop the ifs about SM. He can do it. Ok, so what is a barrier's purpose in the first place? If you can't see an opponent, (Speed or invisibility, it tells you where the person is and location and allows the user to react to the situation before his opponent can deal blows. And the barrier will obviously be wide enough to give Jiraiya time to react. WTH???!!! You're not thinking dude. Somethings are total common sense and you're not picking up on it, giving the impression that Itachi can really do what you're speculating. lolz. Amazing. I'm stating everything Jiraiya could do in any circumstance, while you're just telling me what Itachi can do without asking yourself how can Jiraiya possibly counter this. With what moves? Go look it up then.


What was so dumb about Naruto geting cought by the finger point Jutsu. ( this is so amature lol, we really need to find out the jutsu's name ) Naruto knew he could look into itachis eyes so he needed to look else where. How could he have known Itachi was going to get him the way he did. Also, remember that you do not see A Genjtsu coming, it can effect you from where ever the user decides to unleash it. If Itachi times it right and makes it strong enough Jiraiya won't be able to stop it. It's a matter of chakra control at this point and Itachi has that over Jiraiya. Him being a genjutsu master alone would show this. and the fact that Jiraiya cannot even do sage mode without help because he lack the chakra control to do so.

Again, putting words in my mouth, dude that pisses me off a lot man, stop saying what I didn't say. I never said it was dumb or spoke anything about Naruto. I said that the Finger pointing Genjutsu is a REGULAR GENJUTSU and not of the Sharingan which is clearly stronger. Sure Naruto couldn't get out of it, but Jiraiya can. Stop putting words in my mouth DH. I would not debate with you with that much childish antics. If Obama's representative said something that Dick Chaney didn't say, that mistake would've been quickly accounted for and backed up against Obama. Plz, this is my last time telling you that. Since when does Genjutsu even matter in a fight when figthing an Uchiha? If you can't catch the person with it, what's the sense? Jiraiya in SM is way too quick to be caught. Sorry. Also, like I said, if it is a Regular Genjutsu not only would Jiraiya be able to get out of it, if he's in SM, ma and Pa toad just needs to whack him on the head or flow their chakra into Jiraiya and they're already connected to him. Possibilities are endless.

Jiriaya catching Itachi in that swamp? Very doubtful. Itachi would be able to track his hand signs before he even does them, and react accordingly. Like I said before, Itachi is quicker at hand seals. He would have to do some serious diversionary tactics to unleash that tech and hope to catch Itachi in it.

Itachi would realize it's a Doton attack, but will he know exactly what Jutsu is being performed? No, and that's a very high chance of Itachi being caught. Little ass points like these you're missing dude? You're joking. Your post is all over the place. I agree though that Itachi's hand signs are quicker, but like I said and this is not sinking in, if the opponent knows how to combat the Sharingan, it makes it that much harder for the Uchiha to catch the opponent off guard. That is a fact. Diedara countered Sasuke's Genjutsu and was stupid enough to look directly into his eyes at the last minute and was caught again. Again, "positioning of the protagonist." Deidara just finished countering it and he still looks into his eye again? That's a big contradictory to him countering it then. Stupid, very stupid. And I definitely guarantee that with Jiraiya's skill, he can create diversionary tactics to unleash that tech. Jiraiya has been known to trick his opponents with an attack and quickly unleash another. Like when fighting the Pains. Pain caught all his techs and Taijutsu because he was able to see through each Body.


I cannot combat this last paragraph to me because I am unaware as to how he even got in that toad in the first place lol. If I knew, im sure there is a way around it. When he cam out of that toad he still made sure to keep his distance regardless. And what really makes me wonder is, even though Jiraiya was in sage mode, He still had to fight them one on one because they shared a field of vision, allowing them to see how and where they will be striked. When facing a sharingan user, This is oftin the case with them, to flee if it is one on one because your win is most uncertain. Jiriaya fighting Pains field of vision and fighting the sharingan ( Itachis ) would be ruffly the same thing. Itachi will know where and when Jiraiya would stroke (most of the time if not all). If Jiraiya needed to fight them one on one because of this, how will he do against Itachi whom is already one person but can fight knowing his enemys movements. This is the reason why he needed to fight pain one on one so how would he escape this fact from itachi? pluck out his sharingan lol.

Word, lolz, but remember dude, REVERSE SUMMONING IS A ***** and it seems like Jiraiya is one of the rare characters that know how to do that. Hmmm, not really. Chiyo said that based on ppl who are unaware of how to battle the Sharingan's Genjutsu. Kakashi even had to correct her on her own point. So it's not really the same thing. The Sharingan you can still fight with certain unpredictability methods but the Rinnegan can see everything you do from all angles, so it's not really the same thing although I get where you're coming from. Again, unpredictability shuns the Sharingan dude. If you are skilled enough to trick it, it is very hard to catch the opponent. (Not saying the opponent can't be caught. Some form of adaptation will have to be formed by the Uchiha, but if it's an opponent who can keep up the unpredictability, giving the Sharingan no time to adapt, it would not work.


Hmm and another thing. I thought you wrote it to me, but i guess I glanced at it in a post you wrote to someone else. concerning the fact that Kakashi was on par with Itachi during the rescue garra arc, well he wasn't on par with itachi because that was a jutsu only used as a diversionary tactic, not to search and kill. It is also safe to say that Itachi was not trying to kill in that fight because he had a chance to kill kakashi before but he didn't want to. Along with that Jutsu you should also be reminded that Itachi didn't even put half his chakra into that jutsu. Furthermore, Itachi said he cannot take Itachi by him self before the fight even begun.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]No you got it wrong lolz. I didn't say the were on par, I said they use the Sharigan in a similar fashion, yet differently. Sasuke depends on his Sharingan for everything, Itachi uses his Sharingan only when it is necessary and like Kakashi, they both use it to augment there styles further. Itachi and Kakashi both use the Sharingan for predicting movements, seeing chakra or reading hand seals, but Itachi is able to do this without the Sharingan also. Unlike Kakashi and Sasuke, Itachi uses the Sharingan with ease.;)

Lucky
04-06-2010, 06:47 PM
We rate his Sharingan as much as you rate Pain's Chibaku Tensei and his other techniques. Also, you seem to be forgetting that we were discussing Sharingan and not saying that it was the only thing he would use or need to defeat Pain. Now, through my eyes Pain is the one being overrated.

For the Itachi Vs. Jiraiya fight, I still go with Itachi. Jiraiya openely stated when he fought Pain that he wasn't much for Genjutsu, Itachi is a Genjutsu master. I know that it will take more then just Genjutsu to defeat Jiraiya but I do think Itachi could handle him.

You pull up some great points that I agree with but Itachi said so himself way back then, if Kisame and him were to take him on, the outcome STILL would be 'bad'...

Kurama
04-06-2010, 08:09 PM
You pull up some great points that I agree with but Itachi said so himself way back then, if Kisame and him were to take him on, the outcome STILL would be 'bad'...How many times must this be said? They never said it would be "bad" in the manga. Also, it is obvious he would say anything to convince Kisame to not fight against Jiraiya since he was still allied to the Leaf. -.-

NarutoFAN4R3AL
04-06-2010, 09:35 PM
@ Kurama - Ok, first, let's look at the facts: We know jiraiya is of at least above average intelligence, and that he's a legendary sannin. Your saying itachi's pure intelligence would beat jiraiya? Jiraiya has way more battle experience than itachi. Jiraiya's probably seen every trick in the book by now. How is itachi gonna purely outsmart someone who's fought a considerable amount of high level ninja and earned the rank sannin?

Just re read the pain fight, then add the summoning jutsu, normal rasengan, and sage mode. That must give you like 6 or 7 at least. Itachi has his MS techniques, and maybe his genjutsu I guess, that's 4. Unless my math is wrong, that pretty much shows jiraiya has more (unless you want to count his speed or intellect as a jutsu). And maybe it doesn't win you the fight, but it sure as hell increases your chances of winning. Orochimaru mostly stuck with his snake jutsu when fighting, so orochimaru doesn't prove anything.

Or maybe he could summon the frog before the fight lol. And it doesn't take much to summon right? Just bite your thumb and poof. Also, itachi's a defensive fighter, he takes time to analyze his opponent. If he can take advantage of that split second to summon a frog, it can be done. I'm not saying the fight would be over, but it'd make the fight better for jiraiya.

Maybe it hasn't been proven, but some willpower would help I'm sure. Naruto's willed himself out of many situations where it would seem to be impossible to do so. I'm not saying his genjutsu is all he has on jiraiya, I said this fight would be close. But with jiraiya's array of jutsu and battle experience I could see jiraiya winning this fight.

Atrum Prophecy
04-06-2010, 10:30 PM
How many times must this be said? They never said it would be "bad" in the manga. Also, it is obvious he would say anything to convince Kisame to not fight against Jiraiya since he was still allied to the Leaf. -.-

Stop being stupid, plz. It takes a lot out of a strong adversary to admit when someone might give them problems. They openly suggested that he might be trouble. For Kisame to acknowledge that and for him to also speak for Itachi also, they know that Jiraiya will be a strong opponent. And obviously, Kisame has been around Itachi for a long time since they've been in Akatsuki, so he knows how far Itachi can go, that is why he spoke for Itachi also. That stupid statement you keep saying seems like the only thing you can say. Dumbfounded much? Stay your ass out of the debate if you can't make sense of anything you little rat.

Kurama
04-07-2010, 10:22 AM
@ Kurama - Ok, first, let's look at the facts: We know jiraiya is of at least above average intelligence, and that he's a legendary sannin. Your saying itachi's pure intelligence would beat jiraiya? Jiraiya has way more battle experience than itachi. Jiraiya's probably seen every trick in the book by now. How is itachi gonna purely outsmart someone who's fought a considerable amount of high level ninja and earned the rank sannin?

I never said pure intelligence would win him the fight. Also, unless Jiraiya has fought someone exactly like Itachi before then his battle experience would not help him as much as you think. I highly doubt he has seen every trick in the book by now. Earning the rank of sannin does not automatically put you above Itachi. Also, its not impossible to outsmart someone with lots of experience. Still not saying Itachi will purely outsmart him. Itachi's powers can just overwhelm Jiraiya. ;/

Just re read the pain fight, then add the summoning jutsu, normal rasengan, and sage mode. That must give you like 6 or 7 at least. Itachi has his MS techniques, and maybe his genjutsu I guess, that's 4. Unless my math is wrong, that pretty much shows jiraiya has more (unless you want to count his speed or intellect as a jutsu). And maybe it doesn't win you the fight, but it sure as hell increases your chances of winning. Orochimaru mostly stuck with his snake jutsu when fighting, so orochimaru doesn't prove anything.

One of technique is all you need to finish a fight sometimes. So numbers do not always matter.

Or maybe he could summon the frog before the fight lol. And it doesn't take much to summon right? Just bite your thumb and poof. Also, itachi's a defensive fighter, he takes time to analyze his opponent. If he can take advantage of that split second to summon a frog, it can be done. I'm not saying the fight would be over, but it'd make the fight better for jiraiya.

I am assuming they met randomly. So I will not assume he summoned something before hand. I am sure Itachi will immediately go for a genjutsu which Jiraiya still has not shown he can resist. Itachi only needs him to be under a genjutsu for like a second. Then the fight would be over.

Maybe it hasn't been proven, but some willpower would help I'm sure. Naruto's willed himself out of many situations where it would seem to be impossible to do so. I'm not saying his genjutsu is all he has on jiraiya, I said this fight would be close. But with jiraiya's array of jutsu and battle experience I could see jiraiya winning this fight.


You are assuming willpower has something to do with it. That needs to be proven first. Naruto never willed himself out of a genjusu. An array of techs and experience is not enough to defeat Itachi. You act like all of those things at like a counter to Itachi. Which you have not proved. Itachi on the other hand has a counter to Jiraiya. In the name of genjutsu and Susanoo. Nevermind me...Jiraiya has shown to counter genjutsu all the time. (sarcasm) :P

Stop being stupid, plz. It takes a lot out of a strong adversary to admit when someone might give them problems. They openly suggested that he might be trouble. For Kisame to acknowledge that and for him to also speak for Itachi also, they know that Jiraiya will be a strong opponent. And obviously, Kisame has been around Itachi for a long time since they've been in Akatsuki, so he knows how far Itachi can go, that is why he spoke for Itachi also. That stupid statement you keep saying seems like the only thing you can say. Dumbfounded much? Stay your ass out of the debate if you can't make sense of anything you little rat.
So you ignore my post that showed your argument was full of nonsense and then you result to name calling? lol (btw its on the previous page if you didnt read it)Do not use the word stupid unless you know how to use it correctly. It makes you look ignorant.

There is nothing stupid about my post. Everyone says that 'Itachi and Kisame said blah blah' and automatically think the argument is over. Kisame did not even seem worried when he was talking to Itachi. If your basing your argument on this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/10/ then you might as well quit now. That is not proof that Itachi < Jiraiya. Kisame has not proven that he knows Jiraiya full abilities so we have to assume he is basing anything he says off of reputation. If you do not understand that then you might as well leave. You are trying to twist everything to be the way you want it to be. That is not how things go. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/ If Kisame was so sure that Jiraiya was stronger than them then why would Kisame ask that? He is implying that Itachi could have handled the situation. If Itachi was worried about fighting Jiraiya he would not have bothered with Sasuke. Since if Jiraiya was really more powerful than both of them he would risk dying before he could fulfill his plans for Sasuke.

You are assuming again. Kisame has not proven that he knew Itachi's true intentions at all. Nor has he proven that he knows about Susanoo. You obviously like to try and manipulate things into your favor. The point is that Kisame did not even seem worried about Jiraiya. Btw. Grow up.

Atrum Prophecy
04-07-2010, 11:42 AM
So you ignore my post that showed your argument was full of nonsense and then you result to name calling? lol (btw its on the previous page if you didnt read it)Do not use the word stupid unless you know how to use it correctly. It makes you look ignorant.

There is nothing stupid about my post. Everyone says that 'Itachi and Kisame said blah blah' and automatically think the argument is over. Kisame did not even seem worried when he was talking to Itachi. If your basing your argument on this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/10/ then you might as well quit now. That is not proof that Itachi < Jiraiya. Kisame has not proven that he knows Jiraiya full abilities so we have to assume he is basing anything he says off of reputation. If you do not understand that then you might as well leave. You are trying to twist everything to be the way you want it to be. That is not how things go. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/ If Kisame was so sure that Jiraiya was stronger than them then why would Kisame ask that? He is implying that Itachi could have handled the situation. If Itachi was worried about fighting Jiraiya he would not have bothered with Sasuke. Since if Jiraiya was really more powerful than both of them he would risk dying before he could fulfill his plans for Sasuke.

You are assuming again. Kisame has not proven that he knew Itachi's true intentions at all. Nor has he proven that he knows about Susanoo. You obviously like to try and manipulate things into your favor. The point is that Kisame did not even seem worried about Jiraiya. Btw. Grow up.

Geez, your understanding lacks in so many areas. And the reason why I resorted to name calling because I hate when ppl interrupt my debates with stupid ass statements that they don't even understand.

The reason why Kisame asked was because their target was right there. One of them could've nabbed Naruto and the other stall for time. That is how a TWO MAN TEAM works. I don't think I need to tell you that. Why do you think Akatsuki members roll in twos to capture Bijuus? Your statement holds no weight and yes, your statement is very much stupid.

I don't think the argument is over and I never said Itachi said anything. Kisame acknowledges that he might be a threat and for a strong adversary to say that, that shows that even based off of reputation, this person could be trouble. Jiraiya was around wayyyy longer than Kisame and Itachi. Of course they would be hesitant to fight Jiraiya. His name goes down in the history books as a legend. If you heard about Madara and his legendary feats, you will also be hesitant to fight because of what you heard. Based on what we've seen Jiraiya deploy during battle, he is definitely a worthy adversary for Both Kisame and Itachi. Don't give me that nonsense. Again you put words in my mouth. I never said because Kisame said what he said, means that Jiraiya can beat Itachi. We all know that victory is based on how you use your powers in battle and the amount of intel you have on your foe. Even the strongest character can lose. That is why I picked Jiraiya to debate about. Itachi certainly gets a lot of fanboyism simply because the Sharingan turned him into a god in the manga. What you guys fail to realize is regardless of the Sharingan, Jiraiya has techs that can beat Itachi. It will not be an easy task, but it can be done.

Dude what nonsense are you spilling? Kisame would've stalled for Itachi anyway. Also, Sasuke was the main purpose Itachi even went to the village. It really was not Naruto. Also, Itachi knew that Jiraiya was there and he still tried to go after Naruto? That is simply reckless. Itachi knew that Jiraiya would be a worthy adversary, that's why he used Jiraiya as a way to get out of the village. Remember he didn't tell Kisame his secret either. Kisame would've found it weird why they didn't just capture Naruto like he already started to question Itachi when they retreated. Itachi's actions always had reason.

I'm not manipulating anything. Ain't you the one doing that? lolz. Whatever man. Kisame knows Itachi's moveset, so he spoke for Itachi also. Too bad if you can't understand that. Post if you want to, this was my last reply to a stubborn rat.

NarutoFAN4R3AL
04-07-2010, 04:34 PM
@ Kurama - Jiraiya doesn't have to have fought someone just like itachi for experience to help. If he's fought someone with speed, that'd help. If he's fought genjutsu masters, that'd help. And even if he's fought a sharingan user before (which is certainly possible), that'd tremendously help. Battle experience is a huge advantage jiraiya has, and it'd no doubt help him in this fight. I'm not saying intelligence won't help, but to fight a ninja who's no doubt fought intelligent ninja before (possibly minato, who has been said to be a genius), I can't see him outsmarting jiraiya, so intelligence shouldn't be a main reason itachi has an edge.

I unerstand one technique is sometimes all you need, but we know jiraiya's not going down without a fight, and he has good analytical skills. If he can figure out how itachi's jutsu works before itachi finishes him off, maybe he can counter it.

Well, I'm sure he knows how to get out of basic genjutsu. So now the question is can he get out of itachi's genjutsu? We haven't seen anyone do it yet, so it'd certainly be hard. That's something I'll give itachi. But that certainly doesn't mean the fight is over. If jiraiya has ANY experience against the sharingans genjutsu it'd help immensely and maybe he can find a way to break it.

Like I said before, if jiraiya has any experience against a sharingan user, then yes, experience would help. And having techniques does help also. So those are two things working in his favor. Like I said before, if jiraiya can find a way out of his genjutsu, this fight is probably in his favor. Against susano'o, he'd probably have to stall itachi using his summoning jutsu and other techniques, because I'm sure itachi can't use susano'o forever. I mean look at sasuke, he almost went blind during that danzo fight.

Kurama
04-07-2010, 04:46 PM
You're still ignoring my other post. xD

Your above post also did not prove anything. You basically just repeated obvious things. You are a very lousy "debater".

Also I mistyped something. I meant "Since if Jiraiya was really more powerful than both of them he wouldn't risk dying before he could fulfill his plans for Sasuke."

I never said that you said that Itachi said something.

I would continue but you would refuse to reply to my post. Also, you act like most of what i typed is my opinion and its not. I won't bother explaining in detail. Good day imbecile. Have fun living a life full of idiocy.

Atrum Prophecy
04-07-2010, 09:23 PM
You're still ignoring my other post. xD

Your above post also did not prove anything. You basically just repeated obvious things. You are a very lousy "debater".

Also I mistyped something. I meant "Since if Jiraiya was really more powerful than both of them he wouldn't risk dying before he could fulfill his plans for Sasuke."

I never said that you said that Itachi said something.

I would continue but you would refuse to reply to my post. Also, you act like most of what i typed is my opinion and its not. I won't bother explaining in detail. Good day imbecile. Have fun living a life full of idiocy.

Hahahaha, finally, you do exactly what I wanted you to do. Thank you for being my B I T C H. I wanted you to stop replying. What an asshole you are. Good day stupid nigga. And if I was a lousy debater, I wouldn't be well known on this forum. Even 7TH FAITH could tell you that. You think I would waste my time with someone as retarded as you? Don't give yourself that much credit. You're a whack ass noob that thinks he makes a point by posting nonsense that he has no understanding of. You ****ing suck, you peace of rubbish.:D

Darui
04-07-2010, 09:38 PM
Hahahaha, finally, you do exactly what I wanted you to do. Thank you for being my B I T C H. I wanted you to stop replying. What an asshole you are. Good day stupid nigga. And if I was a lousy debater, I wouldn't be well known on this forum. Even 7TH FAITH could tell you that. You think I would waste my time with someone as retarded as you? Don't give yourself that much credit. You're a whack ass noob that thinks he makes a point by posting nonsense that he has no understanding of. You ****ing suck, you peace of rubbish.:D
Okay you won this round , but next time my homie take sides against itachi ill shall layeth the jamaican fury on you!
we had a deal we can bash on the sharingan and sasuke but never under any circumstances itachi .

Atrum Prophecy
04-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Okay you won this round , but next time my homie take sides against itachi ill shall layeth the jamaican fury on you!
we had a deal we can bash on the sharingan and sasuke but never under any circumstances itachi .

You mean defend Itachi? Ok next time I shall. That's a promise.

Takashi
04-10-2010, 03:24 PM
Jiraiya over Itachi.

Jiraiya is a sannin, he trained the 4th Hokage, He can stop Amaterasu, I'm pretty sure he can beat any Genjutsu, Pluse Jiraiya is Kage level ninja.

Itachi's a High level Jonin, he's nearly blind, and He lost to his little brother, who isn't at Jiraiya's level at all.

Kengen
04-10-2010, 03:32 PM
Jiraiya over Itachi.

Jiraiya is a sannin, he trained the 4th Hokage, He can stop Amaterasu, I'm pretty sure he can beat any Genjutsu, Pluse Jiraiya is Kage level ninja.

Itachi's a High level Jonin, he's nearly blind, and He lost to his little brother, who isn't at Jiraiya's level at all.

Fail much? Please read the manga a little better.

He cannot stop Amaterasu, he has to seal it which is pretty different. I don't think he would have much time to seal it in a battle. As for genjutsu, we really haven't seen Jiraiya encounter much genjutsu, and he can't use any genjutsu (I think).

Itachi didn't lose to Sasuke, he chose to die. He planned to die there long before the battle ever began. And he wasn't nearly as blind as Sasuke was.

Lord Ikimichi
04-10-2010, 04:17 PM
Jiraiya over Itachi.

Jiraiya is a sannin, he trained the 4th Hokage, He can stop Amaterasu, I'm pretty sure he can beat any Genjutsu, Pluse Jiraiya is Kage level ninja.

Itachi's a High level Jonin, he's nearly blind, and He lost to his little brother, who isn't at Jiraiya's level at all.

You get negged just for thinking Itachi was serious against Sasuke....among other things.

Takashi
04-10-2010, 05:02 PM
Fail much? Please read the manga a little better.

He cannot stop Amaterasu, he has to seal it which is pretty different. I don't think he would have much time to seal it in a battle. As for genjutsu, we really haven't seen Jiraiya encounter much genjutsu, and he can't use any genjutsu (I think).

Itachi didn't lose to Sasuke, he chose to die. He planned to die there long before the battle ever began. And he wasn't nearly as blind as Sasuke was.

Jiraiya wouldn't be a Jonin let alone a Sannin if he couldn't block or use Genjutsu, second of all he's stopped Itachi's Genjutsu before in the anime before Shippuden. Also in Itachi's state after fighting Sauske I wouldn't think anyone would be able to CHOOSE to live. I think Itachi damn near coughed up half the blood in his body. I don't care about Sauske I know Itachi died for him, that just makes me think Itachi's retarded. He killed everybody in his clan to save the village and Sauske is going to destroy the village. The Hate that Sauske gathered for his brother after killing everyone in his clan gave him the disire to get revenge on him. If you did everything Sauske did just to find out that it wasn't entirly his fault would make you mad enough to take revenge on the people whos fault it was. That's the exact opposite of what Itachi was going for.

Scott
04-11-2010, 03:00 AM
jiraiya will win if he doesn't get trapped in itachi gen jutsu or if itachi doesn't use susanoo, because susanoo stomps and i doubt jiraiya got a toad in his pocket to counter that

Kengen
04-12-2010, 08:26 AM
Jiraiya wouldn't be a Jonin let alone a Sannin if he couldn't block or use Genjutsu, second of all he's stopped Itachi's Genjutsu before in the anime before Shippuden.

We already know Jiraiya can't use genjutsu, and releasing a jutsu is different from countering or blocking it.

Also in Itachi's state after fighting Sauske I wouldn't think anyone would be able to CHOOSE to live. I think Itachi damn near coughed up half the blood in his body.

That is because he gave himself the final blow and ended his own life. He chose to die and essentially killed himself.

I don't care about Sauske I know Itachi died for him, that just makes me think Itachi's retarded. He killed everybody in his clan to save the village and Sauske is going to destroy the village.

Madara already revealed that Itachi put Sasuke's life above the village. So Sasuke meant more to him than the village and everyone in it.

The Hate that Sauske gathered for his brother after killing everyone in his clan gave him the disire to get revenge on him. If you did everything Sauske did just to find out that it wasn't entirly his fault would make you mad enough to take revenge on the people whos fault it was. That's the exact opposite of what Itachi was going for.

Itachi's mission was to protect Konoha, Itachi's goal and legacy was to protect Sasuke. Everything was for Sasuke.

ULTIMATE SORA
04-12-2010, 08:44 AM
Itachi's Susanoo is meant to have, the Yata no Kagami it can reflect anything no matter what it is. And the Totsuka Sword a ethereal weapon with an enchanted blade capable of sealing anything it pierces in a "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity. I think thats more then enough to beat Jiraiya even is sage mode. Totsuka sword will just beat anything and seal it away with one cut. Yata Mirror will deflect all.

Atrum Prophecy
04-12-2010, 01:43 PM
Itachi's Susanoo is meant to have, the Yata no Kagami it can reflect anything no matter what it is. And the Totsuka Sword a ethereal weapon with an enchanted blade capable of sealing anything it pierces in a "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity. I think thats more then enough to beat Jiraiya even is sage mode. Totsuka sword will just beat anything and seal it away with on cut. Yata Mirror will deflect all.

If you were paying attention to the debate, you would realize that I said if Itachi pulls out Susano'o, Jiraiya is pretty much a goner.

ULTIMATE SORA
04-12-2010, 02:20 PM
If you were paying attention to the debate, you would realize that I said if Itachi pulls out Susano'o, Jiraiya is pretty much a goner.

Uh maybe I wasn't, but that doesn't make much of an issue to me I simply stated my opinion and so have you.

Darui
04-12-2010, 02:21 PM
If you were paying attention to the debate, you would realize that I said if Itachi pulls out Susano'o, Jiraiya is pretty much a goner.

lol nobody read that book , i mean wall of text , i mean that autobiography , i mean your pwnage of words :D

Lord Ikimichi
04-12-2010, 07:46 PM
lol nobody read that book , i mean wall of text , i mean that autobiography , i mean your pwnage of words :D

Lolz I ain't even gonna lie. If I'm not involved with a debate with Trini I don't read most of the time because it's so long. That's good on his behalf though. At least he is thorough.

Atrum Prophecy
04-12-2010, 09:11 PM
Lolz I ain't even gonna lie. If I'm not involved with a debate with Trini I don't read most of the time because it's so long. That's good on his behalf though. At least he is thorough.

Thank You sir.

Uh maybe I wasn't, but that doesn't make much of an issue to me I simply stated my opinion and so have you.

Well I simply think you need to read before repeating what somebody else said. It does make you seem a little off, no offense. When a person goes to a thread, they READ first and then post, not post and then leave. Quite contradictory if you think about it, especially when it is a debate about two characters as complicated as Jiraiya and Itachi. It would be wise to read what everyone else said before you state your opinion, that is how it works.

HOLLOW UCHIHA
04-23-2010, 04:33 AM
i have to say itachi.it wouldnt be easy but he would do it in the end.he let sasuke win.he took out his entire clan.jiraiya AND tsunade couldnt beat a armless orochimaru.that says alot.i always thought jiraiya was overated but we all think differently.lol.Mangekyou in hand aswel i just dont see jiraiya SM winning this fight.im not saying it would be a easy fight and even though kisame and itachi admitted it would be difficult it would be done if need be.akatsuki CAPTURE jinjurikis(cant spell it i know lol) as a job (which is more difficult then killing) only ones they havent got is 8 and 9.fighting someone of a sannins level is standard.im pretty confident that itachi would beat jiraiya.im sure alot will dissagree with me....lol

Kengen
04-23-2010, 06:38 AM
i have to say itachi.it wouldnt be easy but he would do it in the end.he let sasuke win.he took out his entire clan.jiraiya AND tsunade couldnt beat a armless orochimaru.that says alot.i always thought jiraiya was overated but we all think differently.lol.Mangekyou in hand aswel i just dont see jiraiya SM winning this fight.im not saying it would be a easy fight and even though kisame and itachi admitted it would be difficult it would be done if need be.akatsuki CAPTURE jinjurikis(cant spell it i know lol) as a job (which is more difficult then killing) only ones they havent got is 8 and 9.fighting someone of a sannins level is standard.im pretty confident that itachi would beat jiraiya.im sure alot will dissagree with me....lol

Jiraiya was also pretty drugged at the time because of Tsunade.

Dream Walker
04-23-2010, 07:02 AM
lol wow, this thread is still going?

shenronuc
09-15-2010, 12:11 PM
On a different thread, someone challenged me to make this thread, so I decided to.

I think that Itachi is really overrated around these parts. I know he's easily a top tier Naruto character, but people seem to overrate his Sharingan's power.

Anyway, I'll let someone else go first, I'd rather wait for a reply.

if jiraiya could get ma and pa to use their song itachi would be defeated. Itachi seemed scared and even had to use amaterasu to get through toad mouth trap...something just tells me Jiraiya. he kept up to 3 pains who apparently who itachi does take orders from unlike deidara and orochimaru...even kisame. this ties into both why jiraiya stands out and pain difference.

bertjor
10-08-2010, 12:31 AM
Ok, some things need to be made clear:

1. Itachi may have commented that he could not defeat Jiraiya because he was still on the side of Konoha and could not permit to kill a Sannin capable of killing most, if not all members in Akatsuki. So what he said means nothing.

2. I do not know if anyone has considered this, but we do not know when Itachi activated Susanoo, or when or how he acquired the Totsuka sword. Even if Sasuke did it relatively fast, that does not mean the same thing happened with Itachi. Remember, Sasuke used MS far more than Itachi, and curcumstances required that he develop Susanoo far faster. So even if Itachi's praise of Jiraiya was his true opinion, it may have been without the existence of Susanoo at the time.

3. Why does everyone forget the *****slap Itachi gave Orochimaru? The opinion that Jiraiya would be caught easily in Itachi's genjutsu may not be certainty, but sure is a high probability. Bear in mind, Jiraiya may be aware of the Sharingan, but he has never faced MS, and it is safe to assume that he has never faced an adept user of the Sharingan like Itachi.

4. Naruto knows squat about fighting against genjutsu. The reason: Jiraiya knows squat about it as well.

5. Itachi and Jiraiya are pretty much equal on intelligence. Itachi has the IQ, but Jiraiya has the experience.

6. Itachi is not a taijutsu user. He is good at it, but considering he has a disease, he would avoid it if possible, and only attempt it if trying to cast a genjutsu.

The reason why this match is difficult to determine is because everything will be settled within the first second of the battle. If Itachi casts a genjutsu, its over- even if Jiraiya manages to break it by sheer will, Itachi will simply be waiting him with Tsukuyomi, which can only be broken by an adept Sharingan user, and nothing else.

If Jiraiya manages to avoid being caught, he will simply use at his desposal the many techniques and SM and a powerful high level genjutsu which we don't know if Itachi could break it.

Still, my money is on Itachi. Its clear that he could *****slap 2 of the Sannins, he can sure *****slap Jiraiya as well.

Miguel
10-08-2010, 06:39 AM
lol someone would revive this thread

Kengen
10-08-2010, 07:48 AM
Ok, some things need to be made clear:

1. Itachi may have commented that he could not defeat Jiraiya because he was still on the side of Konoha and could not permit to kill a Sannin capable of killing most, if not all members in Akatsuki. So what he said means nothing.

2. a) I do not know if anyone has considered this, but we do not know when Itachi activated Susanoo, or when or how he acquired the Totsuka sword.
b) Even if Sasuke did it relatively fast, that does not mean the same thing happened with Itachi.
c) Remember, Sasuke used MS far more than Itachi, and curcumstances required that he develop Susanoo far faster.
So even if Itachi's praise of Jiraiya was his true opinion, it may have been without the existence of Susanoo at the time.

3. Why does everyone forget the *****slap Itachi gave Orochimaru? The opinion that Jiraiya would be caught easily in Itachi's genjutsu may not be certainty, but sure is a high probability. Bear in mind, Jiraiya may be aware of the Sharingan, but he has never faced MS, and it is safe to assume that he has never faced an adept user of the Sharingan like Itachi.

4. Naruto knows squat about fighting against genjutsu. The reason: Jiraiya knows squat about it as well.

5. Itachi and Jiraiya are pretty much equal on intelligence. Itachi has the IQ, but Jiraiya has the experience.

6. Itachi is not a taijutsu user. He is good at it, but considering he has a disease, he would avoid it if possible, and only attempt it if trying to cast a genjutsu.

The reason why this match is difficult to determine is because everything will be settled within the first second of the battle. If Itachi casts a genjutsu, its over- even if Jiraiya manages to break it by sheer will, Itachi will simply be waiting him with Tsukuyomi, which can only be broken by an adept Sharingan user, and nothing else.

If Jiraiya manages to avoid being caught, he will simply use at his desposal the many techniques and SM and a powerful high level genjutsu which we don't know if Itachi could break it.

Still, my money is on Itachi. Its clear that he could *****slap 2 of the Sannins, he can sure *****slap Jiraiya as well.

1) It does not mean nothing. Itachi may have said that because it was true.

2) a) That is true, but I am leaning toward him already having it. He is a genius after all.
b) Again, that is true, but like I said before, Itachi is a genius. The chances of him not figuring out something before or quicker than Sasuke are quite slim.
c) That is quite the assumption on your part. We have no idea how much Itachi used his Mangekyo, and we certainly have no idea as to how long it took for his susano'o to take on its final form.

3) The chances of Jiraiya breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu without help are indeed slim, but luckily he does have the help of ma and pa, as long as he summons them soon enough.

4) Naruto knew squat before he met Jiraiya, and it was very clear that he had no interest in learning it. The only thing Naruto wanted were powerful and devastating techniques, genjutsu is just not his thing. So why would Jiraiya even attempt to teach him something he doesn't want?

5) Itachi also has experience. He was alive for a war at a young age, so he has seen loss, grief, death , etc. He also became leader of the ANBU at age 13 (I believe it was 13). So I am sure that he has quite a bit of experience under his belt as well. Maybe not quite as much as Jiraiya, but a large amount nonetheless.

6) We have no idea how much the disease affected him, or it what way. Yes it was said his body was ravaged by it, but still. It was pretty clear that it did not effect his capacity (that we ever saw) to fight in hand to hand combat. (don't reference his fight with Sasuke as we can't really tell how much of that was Sasuke succeeding and how much was Itachi purposefully losing)

lol someone would revive this thread

Of course, it should be expected.

bertjor
10-08-2010, 12:35 PM
1) It does not mean nothing. Itachi may have said that because it was true.

But that's the point, we can't know for sure. The one and the other are equally probable, so we can determine the validity of the statement only if we determine who is stronger, not the other way around.

2) a) That is true, but I am leaning toward him already having it. He is a genius after all.
b) Again, that is true, but like I said before, Itachi is a genius. The chances of him not figuring out something before or quicker than Sasuke are quite slim.
c) That is quite the assumption on your part. We have no idea how much Itachi used his Mangekyo, and we certainly have no idea as to how long it took for his susano'o to take on its final form.

Let me begin with numerous references (I do not remember which character, maybe Zetsu) to Sasuke being more capable than Itachi at his age, and has the ability to become even stronger. Second, we can assume how much Itachi used it from how long it takes to lose his vision. It took Sasuke pretty fast, but with extensive use to reach the same level of deterioration as Itachi. As for Susanoo, it is heavily influenced by emotional states and curcumstances, and we don't even know how he managed to obtain Totsuka, a sword of which Oro was well aware of (even though he was wrong as to its nature). We don't know, but it is plausable, since Akatsuki did not stand out much as an organization before now, so conflicts involving itachi may have been minimal.

3) The chances of Jiraiya breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu without help are indeed slim, but luckily he does have the help of ma and pa, as long as he summons them soon enough.

True, that is why if itachi does not perform a genjutsu immediately, its game over. But his experience with Oro tells me that its highly unlikely he would avoid it

4) Naruto knew squat before he met Jiraiya, and it was very clear that he had no interest in learning it. The only thing Naruto wanted were powerful and devastating techniques, genjutsu is just not his thing. So why would Jiraiya even attempt to teach him something he doesn't want?

Actually, there is a good scene between Jiraiya and Naruto where they discuss countering genjutsu. jiraiya provides nothing more than a few basic methods to counter, and aludes that he is not verse in genjutsu

5) Itachi also has experience. He was alive for a war at a young age, so he has seen loss, grief, death , etc. He also became leader of the ANBU at age 13 (I believe it was 13). So I am sure that he has quite a bit of experience under his belt as well. Maybe not quite as much as Jiraiya, but a large amount nonetheless.

True, but even so, Jiraiya's is more versitile. Remember, the reason why Jiraiya is a Sannin is because he fought a Kage and lived. Now Itachi did defeat Oro, who was also a sound kage I think, but still if you consider that Jiraiya and Oro in the same category, that tips the argument in Jiraiya's favor for experience. It's not just how many you face, but who you face as well.

6) We have no idea how much the disease affected him, or it what way. Yes it was said his body was ravaged by it, but still. It was pretty clear that it did not effect his capacity (that we ever saw) to fight in hand to hand combat. (don't reference his fight with Sasuke as we can't really tell how much of that was Sasuke succeeding and how much was Itachi purposefully losing)

It is clear enough that Itachi never intended to get his leg pierced. Now whether you atribute this to disease or Sasuke's strength, nevertheless, Zetsu's comment that Itachi is not acting like himself is placed at that exact time, so it may be atributing it to both disease and fighting without the intention to kill. My argument was that itachi would never use taijutsu as his mode of attack, offensive or defensive, unless cornered, no matter how fast his movements are. Not only for the sake of not hurting the opponent, but his body is no position to handle it.

kyuubi-boy
10-08-2010, 12:42 PM
well im going to say it easly
i like jiraiya more than itachi but whit the soosano
i vote for itachi

Kengen
10-08-2010, 04:43 PM
1)But that's the point, we can't know for sure. The one and the other are equally probable, so we can determine the validity of the statement only if we determine who is stronger, not the other way around.

2) a) Let me begin with numerous references (I do not remember which character, maybe Zetsu) to Sasuke being more capable than Itachi at his age, and has the ability to become even stronger.
b) Second, we can assume how much Itachi used it from how long it takes to lose his vision. It took Sasuke pretty fast, but with extensive use to reach the same level of deterioration as Itachi.
c) As for Susanoo, it is heavily influenced by emotional states and curcumstances, and we don't even know how he managed to obtain Totsuka, a sword of which Oro was well aware of (even though he was wrong as to its nature). We don't know, but it is plausable, since Akatsuki did not stand out much as an organization before now, so conflicts involving itachi may have been minimal.

3) True, that is why if itachi does not perform a genjutsu immediately, its game over. But his experience with Oro tells me that its highly unlikely he would avoid it

4) Actually, there is a good scene between Jiraiya and Naruto where they discuss countering genjutsu. jiraiya provides nothing more than a few basic methods to counter, and aludes that he is not verse in genjutsu

5) True, but even so, Jiraiya's is more versitile. Remember, the reason why Jiraiya is a Sannin is because he fought a Kage and lived. Now Itachi did defeat Oro, who was also a sound kage I think, but still if you consider that Jiraiya and Oro in the same category, that tips the argument in Jiraiya's favor for experience. It's not just how many you face, but who you face as well.

6) It is clear enough that Itachi never intended to get his leg pierced. Now whether you atribute this to disease or Sasuke's strength, nevertheless, Zetsu's comment that Itachi is not acting like himself is placed at that exact time, so it may be atributing it to both disease and fighting without the intention to kill. My argument was that itachi would never use taijutsu as his mode of attack, offensive or defensive, unless cornered, no matter how fast his movements are. Not only for the sake of not hurting the opponent, but his body is no position to handle it.

1) Lol I know that is the point, that is why I said it ;)

2) a) You are going to have to provide manga support for those references before I can accept them.
b) It is most probably true that Sasuke used his more, but we still have no idea how much Itachi used his. And Sasuke did not just use his, he overused his.
c) I am afraid I do not understand fully how you applying this to the length of time it took Itachi to fully form his susano'o.

3) It wouldn't necessarily be game over.

4) Was that in the manga or in the anime? If it is in the anime can you give me the chapter? I am going to have to reread it.

5) Itachi faced Shisui, the greatest Uchiha in the entire clan at the time. Then he took on every Uchiha in the clan, and the Uchiha are all quite powerful themselves. Who knows who else he has faced throughout the years. Plus Jiraiya spent a large portion of his time chasing after women, so not a lot of fighting in his later years.

6) I don't think we can decide what Itachi intended as the battle went on. Perhaps he allowed himself to be hit to get Sasuke to become cocky and more willing to use more of his power in order to drain him quicker. I am just going to have to disagree with you on what Itachi could handle. I think he is perfectly capable of taking on someone equal in power to himself in hand to hand combat.

Kuro Ashi
10-09-2010, 02:50 AM
guys its as simple as this:-
Jiraya sees itachi and dies....

bertjor
10-12-2010, 03:49 AM
1) Lol I know that is the point, that is why I said it ;)

Great, so we agree on the matter. What itachi said has no bearing on the discussion.

2) a) You are going to have to provide manga support for those references before I can accept them.

You're right. I'm looking through the chapters, when I'll find it, i'll post it

b) It is most probably true that Sasuke used his more, but we still have no idea how much Itachi used his. And Sasuke did not just use his, he overused his.

In the battle between Itachi and Sasuke, he clearly states that the more MS is summoned, the faster the decline

chapter-385 page 14 (i think)- Sorry about this, i just joined and I do not have the right to post links yet

We can deduce how much Itachi used it over the years by analyzing the level of deterioration of Sasuke's eyes, because by the time Sasuke met Naruto, he was nothing more than e blur

c) I am afraid I do not understand fully how you applying this to the length of time it took Itachi to fully form his susano'o.

I am saying that unlike Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, in order to fully awaken Susanoo, you have to work on it.

chapter 466 page 5

Sasuke did it because he had no choice, and was found in certain emotional states (Like fighting Danzo), which also influences the development of Susanoo. Itachi, on the other hand, neither had necessity nor emotional curcumstances (not to mention a sick body, which should be pretty painful when developing susanoo). So not activating the susanoo by the time he faced jiraiya is a real possibility.

I would also argue that Sasuke is much as a genius if not more than itachi, but I am still looking through the manga chapters.

3) It wouldn't necessarily be game over.

True, depending on how much Jiraiya knows about the Sharingan, which I assume is not little. I think he would keep out of itachi's sight, and pummel him with jutsus until he exausts him.

4) Was that in the manga or in the anime? If it is in the anime can you give me the chapter? I am going to have to reread it.

Here it is:

chapter 259 page 8

I have reread it, and I have to say, I may have been mistaken. Jiraiya states that he sucks at genjutsu during his battle with Pain, not here.

chapter 378 page 6

But it does show that Naruto did want to learn genjutsu. The point was, that when countering genjutsu, Jiraiya is not very good at it, especially against someone like itachi.


5) Itachi faced Shisui, the greatest Uchiha in the entire clan at the time. Then he took on every Uchiha in the clan, and the Uchiha are all quite powerful themselves. Who knows who else he has faced throughout the years. Plus Jiraiya spent a large portion of his time chasing after women, so not a lot of fighting in his later years.

Actually, Sasuke deduced, and Itachi admitted that he was not powerfull enough to take on the entire police force. He had help from Madara, which is not a small thing.

chapter 385 page 4

Also, consider the fact that it was a suprise attack. The importance of surpise attacks and subderfuge to shinobi is seen when yamato turned into Sasori in order to ambush Kabuto.

Chapter 289 page 11

I am not saying that slaying the entire uchiha clan is a small matter, indeed only a skillful shinobi could, but there are certain elements that worked for him: suprise night time attack, help from madara, and awakened MS. Such curcumstances are important. An example of that aspect is the admittion of Pain that if Jiraiya knew his secret, he would have lost.

So, we can deduce that he used MS very little considering the time span and level of deterioration. Itachi detests war, and seeks to avoid fights and since leaving konoha he was in an orginazation that has kept low for years, or avoiding noticable confrontations.

6) I don't think we can decide what Itachi intended as the battle went on. Perhaps he allowed himself to be hit to get Sasuke to become cocky and more willing to use more of his power in order to drain him quicker. I am just going to have to disagree with you on what Itachi could handle. I think he is perfectly capable of taking on someone equal in power to himself in hand to hand combat.

In my opinion, it is more likely he would avoid attacks in order to to provoke Sasuke to use his powers. Here is zetsu commenting on Itachi's performance

Chapter 394 page 6

Granted, it may hint to itachi letting go Sasuke off easy, but I simply can't get over the fact that a taijutsu user would let himself be hit, whatever the purpose- especially if you are trying to survive long enough to drain someone's chakra.

Achilles
10-12-2010, 04:56 PM
5) Itachi faced Shisui, the greatest Uchiha in the entire clan at the time. Then he took on every Uchiha in the clan, and the Uchiha are all quite powerful themselves. Who knows who else he has faced throughout the years. Plus Jiraiya spent a large portion of his time chasing after women, so not a lot of fighting in his later years.

Kengen, Hurry and clear this up because you're making it seem like Itachi fought Shisui straight face to face. You do know that this was an assassination right? When you assassinate someone, it is most likely a surprise attack. Nowhere in the anime nor manga was it stated that Itachi FACED Shisui. That would be a bunch of bull considering that Shisui was the strongest Uchiha at the time. The Uchiha Police Force weren't even that much of a threat as you're making it out to be. I completely guarantee that Konoha's ANBU, (who was indeed going to massacre the Uchiha Clan if Itachi didn't) would've destroyed the entire clan without much casualties.

I don't think we can decide what Itachi intended as the battle went on. Perhaps he allowed himself to be hit to get Sasuke to become cocky and more willing to use more of his power in order to drain him quicker. I am just going to have to disagree with you on what Itachi could handle. I think he is perfectly capable of taking on someone equal in power to himself in hand to hand combat.

I think we can pretty much decided what he intended. It's simple and those facts were given my Madara himself. If Itachi wanted Sasuke to win, then it's pretty safe to assume that the many things that Itachi did in the fight was all a front. From his dodging to slow reaction abilities to jutsu timing. Everything about Itachi was off. Also, Itachi's body cannot handle much. Even though he didn't intend on killing anyone when he first came to Konoha with Kisame, he was still pretty beat after using Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi once. We all know how greatly chakra loss affects a character displayed by Kakashi when he died after facing God Realm. Itachi's chakra capacity is very low, a 2,5/5 if you will. After exhausting that little amount of chakra, Itachi body is pretty much open to any kind of pain and damage. This is why we've never seen Itachi fight an opponent straight up or be offensive. He always activates his Sharingan to see how offensively powerful his opponent is and then takes initiative to fight according to his opponent's battle styles. He can definitely take on someone equal to him, you're right, which just makes my point for me. Other than that, if it's someone whose hand to hand combat skills are greater than Itachi's, Sharingan prowess comes into play.

Kakashi
10-12-2010, 05:30 PM
and it wasn't explicitly said that Itachi assassinated Shisui either.... good job

Darui
10-12-2010, 05:36 PM
Are we certain itachi killed shisui at all i mean if sasuke gain his MS by watching his brother die technically madara could have kill shisui and itachi watched.

Or shisui could have killed himself so itachi could gain his ms as a plan to help konoha

theses are considerations to think about

Kakashi
10-12-2010, 05:38 PM
well according to the omniscient trini emperor he was assassinated, but we don't really know what exactly happened.

Coobie
10-12-2010, 06:16 PM
I guarantee to you guys that Shisui wasn't even as strong as you guys think he is. He's probably at best as strong as Kakashi.

Achilles
10-12-2010, 06:40 PM
well according to the omniscient trini emperor he was assassinated, but we don't really know what exactly happened.

What's your problem with me? Do I know you? Do you hold a grudge?

Kakashi
10-12-2010, 07:29 PM
eh, just a bad day.... guess I went a tad overboard. I apologize

Achilles
10-12-2010, 08:39 PM
eh, just a bad day.... guess I went a tad overboard. I apologize

It's all good, I have my days when I flip out on ppl too. No apology needed :)

Darui
10-12-2010, 08:46 PM
It's all good, I have my days when I flip out on ppl too. No apology needed :)

nigga moments + niggasynthesis = complete f***ing disaster

Kengen
10-14-2010, 06:05 AM
1)Great, so we agree on the matter. What itachi said has no bearing on the discussion.

2) a) You're right. I'm looking through the chapters, when I'll find it, i'll post it

b) In the battle between Itachi and Sasuke, he clearly states that the more MS is summoned, the faster the decline

chapter-385 page 14 (i think)- Sorry about this, i just joined and I do not have the right to post links yet

We can deduce how much Itachi used it over the years by analyzing the level of deterioration of Sasuke's eyes, because by the time Sasuke met Naruto, he was nothing more than e blur

c) I am saying that unlike Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, in order to fully awaken Susanoo, you have to work on it.

chapter 466 page 5

Sasuke did it because he had no choice, and was found in certain emotional states (Like fighting Danzo), which also influences the development of Susanoo. Itachi, on the other hand, neither had necessity nor emotional curcumstances (not to mention a sick body, which should be pretty painful when developing susanoo). So not activating the susanoo by the time he faced jiraiya is a real possibility.

I would also argue that Sasuke is much as a genius if not more than itachi, but I am still looking through the manga chapters.

3) True, depending on how much Jiraiya knows about the Sharingan, which I assume is not little. I think he would keep out of itachi's sight, and pummel him with jutsus until he exausts him.

4) Here it is:

chapter 259 page 8

I have reread it, and I have to say, I may have been mistaken. Jiraiya states that he sucks at genjutsu during his battle with Pain, not here.

chapter 378 page 6

But it does show that Naruto did want to learn genjutsu. The point was, that when countering genjutsu, Jiraiya is not very good at it, especially against someone like itachi.


5) Actually, Sasuke deduced, and Itachi admitted that he was not powerfull enough to take on the entire police force. He had help from Madara, which is not a small thing.

chapter 385 page 4

Also, consider the fact that it was a suprise attack. The importance of surpise attacks and subderfuge to shinobi is seen when yamato turned into Sasori in order to ambush Kabuto.

Chapter 289 page 11

I am not saying that slaying the entire uchiha clan is a small matter, indeed only a skillful shinobi could, but there are certain elements that worked for him: suprise night time attack, help from madara, and awakened MS. Such curcumstances are important. An example of that aspect is the admittion of Pain that if Jiraiya knew his secret, he would have lost.

So, we can deduce that he used MS very little considering the time span and level of deterioration. Itachi detests war, and seeks to avoid fights and since leaving konoha he was in an orginazation that has kept low for years, or avoiding noticable confrontations.

6) In my opinion, it is more likely he would avoid attacks in order to to provoke Sasuke to use his powers. Here is zetsu commenting on Itachi's performance

Chapter 394 page 6

Granted, it may hint to itachi letting go Sasuke off easy, but I simply can't get over the fact that a taijutsu user would let himself be hit, whatever the purpose- especially if you are trying to survive long enough to drain someone's chakra.

1) It does hold some bearing, just not a lot.

2) a) I can wait.
b) We still do not know how much he used his. While it was less than Sasuke, we cannot tell anything further than that.
c) Ah, but we do not know if that is completely true as we have only one instance to compare it to. For all we know (however unlikely it is), most Uchiha who have unlocked it have easily brought out its full form (again, unlikely, but still).
As for Itachi not having the emotional circumstances, I have to disagree. We know that wiping out his clan and leaving his brother all alone like that affected him. As for the rest of his life, we know nothing of circumstances that would have affected susano'o, but that does not mean there were none. And his body was most likely not that ravaged by the disease yet. I don't think it was a fast acting disease, but rather a slower one that takes over the body with time.
Sasuke is not anywhere near having the genius Itachi was. Everything Sasuke has done was with luck and random powerups. He is nothing like Itachi and never will be.

3) Itachi is not one to allow that to happen. He is a genius after all. Maybe not the type of genius Shikamaru is, but a genius nonetheless. And he does have abilities outside of his Sharingan that I am sure we never saw.

4) Yeah, Jiraiya definitely is not a genjutsu type person, and neither is Naruto.
Note that Jiraiya was the one who brought up genjutsu, and Naruto only wanted to learn until he was told that it isn't his thing. Then he didn't hesitate to give up.

5) I still doubt they fought back to back. I am certain that Itachi had to face many of his opponents alone (and unaware).

Still, the ability to catch most of the clan by surprise is no small feat. You have to be skilled in order to pull it off, and quick. I think there is a bit of a difference between Pain's secret and Itachi's surprise attack.

I wasn't thinking that he used his Mangekyo most of the time. I agree that he probably used it very little, when he really needed it, such as against opponents who were strong and aware of his attack.

6) Sasuke may not be bright when he is fighting against Itachi, but if he didn't land hits, then I am sure he would realize Itachi was trying to drain his chakra and stop using large amounts of it.


Off topic: I know, not being able to post the links is always a pain lol.

Kengen, Hurry and clear this up because you're making it seem like Itachi fought Shisui straight face to face. You do know that this was an assassination right? When you assassinate someone, it is most likely a surprise attack. Nowhere in the anime nor manga was it stated that Itachi FACED Shisui. That would be a bunch of bull considering that Shisui was the strongest Uchiha at the time. The Uchiha Police Force weren't even that much of a threat as you're making it out to be. I completely guarantee that Konoha's ANBU, (who was indeed going to massacre the Uchiha Clan if Itachi didn't) would've destroyed the entire clan without much casualties.

I apologize for that. No, I do not think that Itachi faced Shisui head on, but we cannot say for sure if Shisui got the chance to fight back at all. He may have been wounded very badly and managed to give Itachi a little trouble before he was finally killed. Whether he did or not, we don't know, but I definitely do not believe Itachi and Shisui actually battled face to face from the start. Also, sneaking up and managing to attack Shisui without him noticing was no small feat in itself I am sure.

I think you are underestimating the Uchiha Clan. The Uchiha were the rivals to the Senju after all, so I don't think they are quite as weak as you are making them out to be. If every (or at least most) of the shinobi in the ANBU went in during the dead of night, sure they would probably take out the Uchiha with few casualties, but they would need those numbers.

I think we can pretty much decided what he intended. It's simple and those facts were given my Madara himself. If Itachi wanted Sasuke to win, then it's pretty safe to assume that the many things that Itachi did in the fight was all a front. From his dodging to slow reaction abilities to jutsu timing. Everything about Itachi was off. Also, Itachi's body cannot handle much. Even though he didn't intend on killing anyone when he first came to Konoha with Kisame, he was still pretty beat after using Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi once. We all know how greatly chakra loss affects a character displayed by Kakashi when he died after facing God Realm. Itachi's chakra capacity is very low, a 2,5/5 if you will. After exhausting that little amount of chakra, Itachi body is pretty much open to any kind of pain and damage. This is why we've never seen Itachi fight an opponent straight up or be offensive. He always activates his Sharingan to see how offensively powerful his opponent is and then takes initiative to fight according to his opponent's battle styles. He can definitely take on someone equal to him, you're right, which just makes my point for me. Other than that, if it's someone whose hand to hand combat skills are greater than Itachi's, Sharingan prowess comes into play.

Well I know the final outcome was intended, but I was referring to what he intended about the events of the battle as he really had no way of knowing what Sasuke would bring out. I know Sasuke is pretty much outclassed by Itachi if Itachi wanted to win, but I am sure there is a small chance that Sasuke could have surprised him and managed to land a hit.
So you agree that Itachi was capable of fighting hand to hand with an opponent equal to himself?

Lord Ikimichi
10-14-2010, 01:16 PM
I guarantee to you guys that Shisui wasn't even as strong as you guys think he is. He's probably at best as strong as Kakashi.

I'm feeling something along these lines. I don't think we are underestimating Shisui at all. I think we as charcters in the manga have underestimated Itachi. We have to look at it from Itachi's perspective. Then clan pretty much new what Shisui was capable of and he was renowned for it. On the other hand, they truly had no clue to the depth of Itachi's abilities so when comparing the two the common misconception would be that Shisui is stronger.

That obviously proved not to be the case. This is one of the things I love about Itachi. He caused you to question your sense of reality and what you know as absolute and definite. Anyone saying that Itachi had to sneak attack Shisui is insulting him. I'm not downplaying Shisui's power at all but the things Itachi has done have stuck with me throughout the series. Lines like Madara's are profound to me when he said that Itachi would have killed him if he knew all his secrets and that he actually had to honor the agreement and stay away from Konoha until Itachi died. That's coming from the very mouth of Madara himself. A man that even in a shell form of his former self has proven nearly impossible to stop.

I love Jiraya and there are some good points in this thread but there is no way he could beat Itachi in a fight.

Achilles
10-14-2010, 06:25 PM
I'm feeling something along these lines. I don't think we are underestimating Shisui at all. I think we as charcters in the manga have underestimated Itachi. We have to look at it from Itachi's perspective. Then clan pretty much new what Shisui was capable of and he was renowned for it. On the other hand, they truly had no clue to the depth of Itachi's abilities so when comparing the two the common misconception would be that Shisui is stronger.

I would definitely agree here but we have no idea who in the Uchiha Clan saw Shisui's true prowess as a fighter. His eyes and his speed were the two most insane aspects of his renown. Itachi without MS had speed and Genjutsu and he didn't have it until he killed Shisui. It is safe to assume that Shisui's Sharingan was more special than Itachi's at that time and their speed would also be comparable. Regular Genjutsu wouldn't work, nor would the Sharingan Genjutsu since a 3rd Tomoe Sharingan's Genjutsu poses no threat to another 3 tomoe Sharingan. So they most likely used Jutsus and Hand to Hand Combat in that fight. Although, I still stick to my opinion that Itachi surprised attacked him and killed him. Itachi became an ANBU commander at the age of 13 and was also one of the ninjas to be given orders directly by the Hokage. It takes a lot of renown to be put so closely to the Hokage at the age of 13 bro. Shisui was never even given renown like that. If you ask me, Itachi had more renown than Shisui. That was definitely a good way of measuring his capacity as a ninja. The only thing that I would say no one knew was Itachi's move sets. You can measure how strong a man is by the amount of praise he receives, but you can never tell what techs he may have. And this goes into Itachi's category. If they really did go head to head, I would most likely agree that Shisui lost because of lack of Intel on Itachi's abilities. That's just as bad as being caught off guard when you're actually strong enough to take on the person that assaulted you. So in conclusion, I believe that Shisui was as powerful as he is made out to be and definitely was strong and skillful enough to kill Itachi.

Anyone saying that Itachi had to sneak attack Shisui is insulting him.

That's not insulting Itachi, watch your words man. Itachi is a beast of all beasts, but everyone worships Itachi like a god and I don't blame any of you because Kishi made him so; but to be real, Shisui had as much potential as Itachi at the time, so to even underestimate him as a fighter when he was so renowned is terrible.

I'm not downplaying Shisui's power at all but the things Itachi has done have stuck with me throughout the series.

Exactly my point, you praise him because Kishi has made him out to be some untouchable force. Like I said though, it's stupid to think that Itachi could beat High Caliber Ninjas like Raikage or even Minato for that matter because we have never seen him fight all out. Then again, against ninjas as strong as Raikage or Jiraiya for that fact, I don't see Itachi winning without a miracle from Susanoo and that's all the respect I'll give him. Itachi's chakra capacity too low first of all. He definitely has the smarts and the Genjutsu, but against characters who can fight against the Sharingan on an even playing field, it's hard to tell if Itachi would come out victorious. You also cannot compare the things Itachi did now to back in the day. He is a lot wiser now and had more time to work on his abilities. Time helps improvement.

Lines like Madara's are profound to me when he said that Itachi would have killed him if he knew all his secrets and that he actually had to honor the agreement and stay away from Konoha until Itachi died.


Man come on. Madara was in a weakened state. Even Konan could've killed Madara if she knew about Izanagi and Itachi can more than best her any day. That does not show how strong Itachi is at all. That's like you beating up Stone Cold Steve Austin when he reaches 73 yrs old. If anything, it more displays how weak Madara was to say something like that. Madara in his prime, to me, would trounce Itachi in his sleep.

A man that even in a shell form of his former self has proven nearly impossible to stop.

Really Iki? Son the only reason why Madara was impossible to stop was because of his ability to become intangible. It's funny how you've seen all these facts and still state miniscule statements like this to back up your rant on Itachi's capabilities. This proves how much unnecessary praise Itachi receives. (How Ridiculous)

I love Jiraya and there are some good points in this thread but there is no way he could beat Itachi in a fight.

Your own opinion dogz, not fact at all and very immature to even say something so idiotic.

Lord Ikimichi
10-14-2010, 08:31 PM
I would definitely agree here but we have no idea who in the Uchiha Clan saw Shisui's true prowess as a fighter. His eyes and his speed were the two most insane aspects of his renown. Itachi without MS had speed and Genjutsu and he didn't have it until he killed Shisui. It is safe to assume that Shisui's Sharingan was more special than Itachi's at that time and their speed would also be comparable. Regular Genjutsu wouldn't work, nor would the Sharingan Genjutsu since a 3rd Tomoe Sharingan's Genjutsu poses no threat to another 3 tomoe Sharingan. So they most likely used Jutsus and Hand to Hand Combat in that fight. Although, I still stick to my opinion that Itachi surprised attacked him and killed him. Itachi became an ANBU commander at the age of 13 and was also one of the ninjas to be given orders directly by the Hokage. It takes a lot of renown to be put so closely to the Hokage at the age of 13 bro. Shisui was never even given renown like that. If you ask me, Itachi had more renown than Shisui. That was definitely a good way of measuring his capacity as a ninja. The only thing that I would say no one knew was Itachi's move sets. You can measure how strong a man is by the amount of praise he receives, but you can never tell what techs he may have. And this goes into Itachi's category. If they really did go head to head, I would most likely agree that Shisui lost because of lack of Intel on Itachi's abilities. That's just as bad as being caught off guard when you're actually strong enough to take on the person that assaulted you. So in conclusion, I believe that Shisui was as powerful as he is made out to be and definitely was strong and skillful enough to kill Itachi.

When I spoke of renown I was only regarding that of the Uchiha. Praise from the villagers or even the Hokage would mean little in comparaitve perspective because those are coming from two different viewpoints. The Uchiha were more shunned and feard for their powers than praised. Me observing it from the Uchiha standpoint alows us to get a true perspective of how they viewed the two especially since they would have more of an idea of both their powers than the village would. Itachi was exposed to both sides whereas Shisui's best stuff was seen mostly by the clan thus getting at what I was saying. There is no certainty at all that Shisui was better than Itachi. I'm sure at one point he was but who knows when his act began. Him contnuing to look up and admire Shisui was obviously a part of his plan but for how long and how much of his power he hid we do not know. It may very well be that Shisui was at or past Itachi's level but that wouldn't require him to sneak attack. Just because someone has the greater power does not mean they have the mastery. Shisui may have had the more renowned and powerful sharingan but that doesn't mean he was better at usuing it than Iatchi was.

That's not insulting Itachi, watch your words man. Itachi is a beast of all beasts, but everyone worships Itachi like a god and I don't blame any of you because Kishi made him so; but to be real, Shisui had as much potential as Itachi at the time, so to even underestimate him as a fighter when he was so renowned is terrible.

Honestly there's no telling what his potential was. We know far less about Shisui than we do about Itachi. He may have reached his limit when he was killed or had room to grow.

Exactly my point, you praise him because Kishi has made him out to be some untouchable force. Like I said though, it's stupid to think that Itachi could beat High Caliber Ninjas like Raikage or even Minato for that matter because we have never seen him fight all out. Then again, against ninjas as strong as Raikage or Jiraiya for that fact, I don't see Itachi winning without a miracle from Susanoo and that's all the respect I'll give him. Itachi's chakra capacity too low first of all. He definitely has the smarts and the Genjutsu, but against characters who can fight against the Sharingan on an even playing field, it's hard to tell if Itachi would come out victorious. You also cannot compare the things Itachi did now to back in the day. He is a lot wiser now and had more time to work on his abilities. Time helps improvement.

To me this is a paradox because it is arguable either way. On your hand Itachi can't reasonably defeat these ninja because he hasn't shown that capacity but on the other we know for a fact that he nver showed what he was really capable of. This leaves people like you who will give him credit for what is shown and others like myself who would gestimate his true potential. Neither lead to truth but result in circles that we haved talked around for a couple of years now in varied debates lol. This is the reason I have been wishing for some flashback that would show him at his limit but even that seems impossible for Itachi at least. We don't know how long and how badly his illness has effected him nor is their any perceivable reason anyone he would face after the clan massacre that would push him so. The only thing I can thing of is his aquisition of the sword and shield for his Susanoo but that does not add to the plot.

Man come on. Madara was in a weakened state. Even Konan could've killed Madara if she knew about Izanagi and Itachi can more than best her any day. That does not show how strong Itachi is at all. That's like you beating up Stone Cold Steve Austin when he reaches 73 yrs old. If anything, it more displays how weak Madara was to say something like that. Madara in his prime, to me, would trounce Itachi in his sleep.

I don't think so. Konan knew about almost everything he could do and prepared a special jutsu which she said she practiced countless times to kill him. Those are extinuating circumstances. Other than that, name someone who has posed some real threat. He is a shell of himself but that shell is still formidable to anyone.

Really Iki? Son the only reason why Madara was impossible to stop was because of his ability to become intangible. It's funny how you've seen all these facts and still state miniscule statements like this to back up your rant on Itachi's capabilities. This proves how much unnecessary praise Itachi receives. (How Ridiculous)

Lol I don't know why you feel this way. You act as if people have had true chances of stopping this guy. Even with his use of Izanagi he made Konan look like a pushover. Until people cone beating Madara down left and right I will take heed when he has to respect the words of others, shit openly obey them.

Your own opinion dogz, not fact at all and very immature to even say something so idiotic.

It is my opinion and I have you speak more respectfully of it even if you do not disagree. I do not insult your words, and yes calling someones opnion idiotic is insulting.

Achilles
10-15-2010, 05:15 PM
The Uchiha were more shunned and feard for their powers than praised. Me observing it from the Uchiha standpoint alows us to get a true perspective of how they viewed the two especially since they would have more of an idea of both their powers than the village would.

Lolz, don't even try doing that because you don't even have the facts to push this little viewpoint of yours.

Itachi was exposed to both sides whereas Shisui's best stuff was seen mostly by the clan thus getting at what I was saying. There is no certainty at all that Shisui was better than Itachi.

You don't know that at all. Itachi was exposed to both sides? huh??? I've heard ppl from the village speak of Itachi but it was always about what he did to his own clan. I've never heard anybody else, other than our regular main characters or villains, speak highly of Itachi's power. That also goes for Shisui; Ao is one of those ppl. It would also seem that all the ppl that heard of Shisui was killed by him since it was stated that Shisui always rushed to take on or complete a mission by himself for the sake of the Uchiha Clan; he simply didn't live long enough to gain the kind of praise that Itachi got in my own opinion. I agree, there was definitely no certainty, but we do know both were strong at the time and to think that Itachi was stronger than him at the time as well will also be a foolish gesture to make without the proper facts, no matter how secretive he was.

Him contnuing to look up and admire Shisui was obviously a part of his plan but for how long and how much of his power he hid we do not know.

I agree here, but I don't think he looked up to Shisui as a motive for his own gain. I really think he admired him as a brethren and as a strong force of the Uchiha Clan. Shisui was probably the strongest Uchiha at the time due to his eye power.

Just because someone has the greater power does not mean they have the mastery. Shisui may have had the more renowned and powerful sharingan but that doesn't mean he was better at usuing it than Iatchi was.

So what are you saying? That Itachi mastered his Sharingan before Shisui? If that's the case then you're pretty much fooling yourself and going strictly upon your own selfish beliefs. Using your Sharingan against another Sharingan is pretty useless especially when you both have the same 3 Tomoe Sharingan. The only thing that would prove detrimental to winning that fight is how well their physicality works with their Sharingan. Shisui and Itachi at the time held enough renown and praise to be on the same level. Shisui's eye Doujutsu was better than Itachi's by far and you know that. For him to have excelled and become so powerful at such a young age, Shisui had to have a lot of mastery over the Sharingan. He even had a 3 tomoe Sharingan already, something that not most Uchiha can accomplish, especially at his age; that's another thing you know all too well. In terms of speed, they could've probably been on the same level since Shisui was known as "Shisui of the body Flicker" and Itachi also had an insane Body Flicker himself. It would all boil down to hand to hand combat. You cannot give Itachi so much praise as to even make it seem like he had more mastery over the Sharingan than Shisui at the time. You have no facts of that. We can only go by their renown. True, but then again, you don't know if Itachi's mastery of the Sharingan was better than Shisui's either. Stalemate.


Honestly there's no telling what his potential was. We know far less about Shisui than we do about Itachi. He may have reached his limit when he was killed or had room to grow.

Yes we can. Like I said, Shisui was said to always be taking missions head on for the Uchiha Clan and he always excelled at every mission. The same was with Itachi. Just by comparing their feats at that time, both ninjas seemed pretty equal to me. Reached his limit? That's funny Iki, it really is.

To me this is a paradox because it is arguable either way. On your hand Itachi can't reasonably defeat these ninja because he hasn't shown that capacity but on the other we know for a fact that he nver showed what he was really capable of. This leaves people like you who will give him credit for what is shown and others like myself who would gestimate his true potential.

You guys, especially you, ramble on about how much capacity Itachi's strength really held. Me? I look at stats and observe the way they fight before answering any questions or discussing anything about these characters. Itachi's body first off will not enable him to do anything strenuous for long periods of time. He has insane speed, mastery of Genjutsu, Full 5 in intelligence, mastery of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, the Sharingan and MS. Ninjutsu and MS he absolutely cannot spam because of his low stamina capacity. That leaves him very much limited in a fight against Jiraiya, especially Jiraiya in SM. Itachi wasn't shown to have fought any powerful characters within the series, so saying that Jiraiya can't beat him is also a ridiculous theory or opinion, no matter which way you look at it. Everybody always compare Jiraiya to Orochimaru because of how fast he lost to Itachi's Sharingan, not taking into full consideration that Itachi already knew of Orochimaru's lust and desperation over the Sharingan, which left him completely vulnerable; plus he was Itachi's partner considering that Itachi is always on guard against friend or foe. Seen right here:
http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/508/p-7
http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/508/p-8

Therefore gestimating Itachi's true potential is useless to me because we've already seen his downfall, which is his stamina. We've seen much about Itachi to make good estimates on how he will use his abilities in battle. From his fast hand signs to mastery of the Sharingan and his physical capabilities to strategy and tactics. When comparing that to a ninja like Jiraiya who excelled at battle tactics and info gathering (which is the most important thing to do before fighting Itachi) Itachi's capabilities and chance for victory takes a nose dive because we have no clue of how Jiraiya would handle the Sharingan, but we do know that his intel gathering will be very effective against Itachi. Like you said, this convo goes around in circles each time, so...meh lolz.

This is the reason I have been wishing for some flashback that would show him at his limit but even that seems impossible for Itachi at least.

Impossible? lolz. Iki, we haven't seen Itachi fight anybody powerful. He has a 2 in chakra. He has more of a limit than most of the characters in the series. He used Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu once in a day and retreated; although his techs were effective, he still has low chakra capacities. It's very safe to assume that when fighting a worthy opponent, according to how strenuous the battle is, Itachi's low stamina will soon get the best of him. (Not saying that Itachi isn't going to win) but if this worthy adversary manages to give Itachi the fight of his life, I could very well see Susanoo being yanked out because after one Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu his chakra is already cut in half. He's either left with using both techs again, a few good jutsus or hand to hand combat. There's no telling if Jiraiya would be caught by Itachi, he's not an amateur nor is he as foolish as Orochimaru. This battle would still be a good and close fight.

I don't think so. Konan knew about almost everything he could do and prepared a special jutsu which she said she practiced countless times to kill him. Those are extinuating circumstances. Other than that, name someone who has posed some real threat. He is a shell of himself but that shell is still formidable to anyone.

Dude, Konan's preparation was dead on, the only thing she didn't count on was Izanagi. Name another way that Madara could've gotten out of that situation. She would've pwned him if he didn't have Izanagi. You're telling me you don't think so? To be pushed to even use Izanagi, a forbidden tech, Madara had no other option. Raikage definitely posed a big threat to him during the Kage meeting. Raikage was about to punch him when he became completely intangible. How can you ask such a question when all Madara does is utilize his intangibility? Almost every Kage right now poses a great threat to Madara which is why he wanted Sasuke to weaken them so he can capture them; or did you forget that little detail? Realize he was planning to become intangible during the fight with Konan but she had already planned for that. Becoming intangible is and has been Madara's main strategy throughout his fights since he's become "a shell of his former self." Prove me wrong.

Lol I don't know why you feel this way. You act as if people have had true chances of stopping this guy. Even with his use of Izanagi he made Konan look like a pushover. Until people cone beating Madara down left and right I will take heed when he has to respect the words of others, shit openly obey them.

What??!! lolz you must be on drugs. He made Konan look like a pushover? Give respect where it's due man. She was the only one, since Minato, to deal him so much damage and bring him so closely to death. If Izanagi wasn't in his arsenal, he would've died bro. Debating with you on this topic is becoming retarded now man. Is that how you pay tribute to characters who show true grit? Wow son. If I say some shit like that about Itachi, you would look at me the same way I'm viewing you right now.

It is my opinion and I have you speak more respectfully of it even if you do not disagree. I do not insult your words, and yes calling someones opnion idiotic is insulting.

Lolz, take it how you want it. If you want to get sentimental over me saying that your words were idiotic, which it was because you know for a fact that using his intangibility is the reason why no one could catch him. If you really look up to Madara because of his repetitive use of that tactic, then I have every right to call your words idiotic. Don't take my words so literally, you'll hurt yourself and only bring forth frustration upon yourself.

Lord Ikimichi
10-15-2010, 08:37 PM
Lolz, don't even try doing that because you don't even have the facts to push this little viewpoint of yours.
You really can be an ass you know that. There's one thing to debate and there's another thing to belittle someone's thought. You seem incapable of differentiating the two. My little viewpoint? Talking to a man like that where I live is cause to get your ass beat. Do any of us come at you like that? Lack of fact or any reason is no excuse to conduct yourself in such a manor when we are simply debating anime. I've told you this before and you chill out for a while but you always come back to your demeaning tone. Honestly I don't get it. I thought we were cool but you obviously don't respect me enough to debate without your little slanders. And don't call this shit me being sinsitive because you refuse to acknowledge your repetitively insolent ways. Look man, just chill out and debate. And you wonder why people be coming at you wrong.


You don't know that at all. Itachi was exposed to both sides? huh??? I've heard ppl from the village speak of Itachi but it was always about what he did to his own clan. I've never heard anybody else, other than our regular main characters or villains, speak highly of Itachi's power. That also goes for Shisui; Ao is one of those ppl. It would also seem that all the ppl that heard of Shisui was killed by him since it was stated that Shisui always rushed to take on or complete a mission by himself for the sake of the Uchiha Clan; he simply didn't live long enough to gain the kind of praise that Itachi got in my own opinion. I agree, there was definitely no certainty, but we do know both were strong at the time and to think that Itachi was stronger than him at the time as well will also be a foolish gesture to make without the proper facts, no matter how secretive he was.

You're kind of proving my point here. These higher up people in our outside the clan pretty much knew of Itachi's prowess. No one outside the clan ever really spoke of Shisui's prowess besides Ao. And what does that go back to? It goes back to the clan rating Shisui better than Itachi whether that be true or false. I don't look at the data books but I hear the stats are verified for the manga. Is Shisui listed and is his stuff better than Itachi's? My whole point is that the gap between them, if there was one, would not be as big as you were let on to believe because Itachi showed only what he wanted them to see.

I agree here, but I don't think he looked up to Shisui as a motive for his own gain. I really think he admired him as a brethren and as a strong force of the Uchiha Clan. Shisui was probably the strongest Uchiha at the time due to his eye power.



So what are you saying? That Itachi mastered his Sharingan before Shisui? If that's the case then you're pretty much fooling yourself and going strictly upon your own selfish beliefs. Using your Sharingan against another Sharingan is pretty useless especially when you both have the same 3 Tomoe Sharingan. The only thing that would prove detrimental to winning that fight is how well their physicality works with their Sharingan. Shisui and Itachi at the time held enough renown and praise to be on the same level. Shisui's eye Doujutsu was better than Itachi's by far and you know that. For him to have excelled and become so powerful at such a young age, Shisui had to have a lot of mastery over the Sharingan. He even had a 3 tomoe Sharingan already, something that not most Uchiha can accomplish, especially at his age; that's another thing you know all too well. In terms of speed, they could've probably been on the same level since Shisui was known as "Shisui of the body Flicker" and Itachi also had an insane Body Flicker himself. It would all boil down to hand to hand combat. You cannot give Itachi so much praise as to even make it seem like he had more mastery over the Sharingan than Shisui at the time. You have no facts of that. We can only go by their renown. True, but then again, you don't know if Itachi's mastery of the Sharingan was better than Shisui's either. Stalemate.

Once again you mistake my hypothetical for fact. When did I ever say Itachi mastered the sharingan before Shisui? We all know Shisui was better than Itachi for a time and the only mystery was if he surpassed him during the time he leaned about the coup and was given the mission. I was saying, as Sasuke pointed out in their battle, that power of the eye does not equate to ones skill to effectively use the eye. Now Sasuke was wrong in assuming that he had overcome Itachi but the point still stands. This isn't deciding anything. this all goes back to you and others thought that Shisui was better than him at the time of his death when we don't actually know.


Yes we can. Like I said, Shisui was said to always be taking missions head on for the Uchiha Clan and he always excelled at every mission. The same was with Itachi. Just by comparing their feats at that time, both ninjas seemed pretty equal to me. Reached his limit? That's funny Iki, it really is.



You guys, especially you, ramble on about how much capacity Itachi's strength really held. Me? I look at stats and observe the way they fight before answering any questions or discussing anything about these characters. Itachi's body first off will not enable him to do anything strenuous for long periods of time. He has insane speed, mastery of Genjutsu, Full 5 in intelligence, mastery of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, the Sharingan and MS. Ninjutsu and MS he absolutely cannot spam because of his low stamina capacity. That leaves him very much limited in a fight against Jiraiya, especially Jiraiya in SM. Itachi wasn't shown to have fought any powerful characters within the series, so saying that Jiraiya can't beat him is also a ridiculous theory or opinion, no matter which way you look at it. Everybody always compare Jiraiya to Orochimaru because of how fast he lost to Itachi's Sharingan, not taking into full consideration that Itachi already knew of Orochimaru's lust and desperation over the Sharingan, which left him completely vulnerable; plus he was Itachi's partner considering that Itachi is always on guard against friend or foe. Seen right here:
http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/508/p-7
http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/508/p-8

Therefore gestimating Itachi's true potential is useless to me because we've already seen his downfall, which is his stamina. We've seen much about Itachi to make good estimates on how he will use his abilities in battle. From his fast hand signs to mastery of the Sharingan and his physical capabilities to strategy and tactics. When comparing that to a ninja like Jiraiya who excelled at battle tactics and info gathering (which is the most important thing to do before fighting Itachi) Itachi's capabilities and chance for victory takes a nose dive because we have no clue of how Jiraiya would handle the Sharingan, but we do know that his intel gathering will be very effective against Itachi. Like you said, this convo goes around in circles each time, so...meh lolz.

This also is not true. We've never seen Itachi in a real battle situation. Everything he has done has been scipted so how can you say that he will fight along those same line? We haven't seen him in a situation where he actually has to build a battle plan and show us his real stuff. Also I don't see the parallel with Jiraya and Orochimaru. If anything it's worse because Jiraya is bad with genjutsu. And actually debating the battle for once, how would Jiraya even get into sage mode? BAring some terrain that helped him like it did against Pain, he would never have enough time to even get into it to pose such a serious threat.

Impossible? lolz. Iki, we haven't seen Itachi fight anybody powerful. He has a 2 in chakra. He has more of a limit than most of the characters in the series. He used Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu once in a day and retreated; although his techs were effective, he still has low chakra capacities. It's very safe to assume that when fighting a worthy opponent, according to how strenuous the battle is, Itachi's low stamina will soon get the best of him. (Not saying that Itachi isn't going to win) but if this worthy adversary manages to give Itachi the fight of his life, I could very well see Susanoo being yanked out because after one Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu his chakra is already cut in half. He's either left with using both techs again, a few good jutsus or hand to hand combat. There's no telling if Jiraiya would be caught by Itachi, he's not an amateur nor is he as foolish as Orochimaru. This battle would still be a good and close fight.

Lol okay I was rash to say impossible. If anything we've learned in this series that a battle with any kage level ninja is no pushover.

Dude, Konan's preparation was dead on, the only thing she didn't count on was Izanagi. Name another way that Madara could've gotten out of that situation. She would've pwned him if he didn't have Izanagi. You're telling me you don't think so? To be pushed to even use Izanagi, a forbidden tech, Madara had no other option. Raikage definitely posed a big threat to him during the Kage meeting. Raikage was about to punch him when he became completely intangible. How can you ask such a question when all Madara does is utilize his intangibility? Almost every Kage right now poses a great threat to Madara which is why he wanted Sasuke to weaken them so he can capture them; or did you forget that little detail? Realize he was planning to become intangible during the fight with Konan but she had already planned for that. Becoming intangible is and has been Madara's main strategy throughout his fights since he's become "a shell of his former self." Prove me wrong.

She was dead on and still lost. You can't throw Izanagi out there because you don't know what else is up his sleeve. the fact is she prepare that justu and practiced it hundreds of times and still failed. And you talk about the kages. If they could take him out why didn't they do it at the summit. If 1 of them alone can get him why not be rid of him and all this crap then. You are the one downplaying Madara. You talk about his repetitve technique. Why use something else when that is completely effective? Ain't nobody stopping it. I hold Madara in his place because he has earned it. Even in this shell form he is the one effecting the entire shinobi world.

What??!! lolz you must be on drugs. He made Konan look like a pushover? Give respect where it's due man. She was the only one, since Minato, to deal him so much damage and bring him so closely to death. If Izanagi wasn't in his arsenal, he would've died bro. Debating with you on this topic is becoming retarded now man. Is that how you pay tribute to characters who show true grit? Wow son. If I say some shit like that about Itachi, you would look at me the same way I'm viewing you right now.

I'm talking about how he was acting when he beat her. He made it seem like it was nothing in his mind.

Lolz, take it how you want it. If you want to get sentimental over me saying that your words were idiotic, which it was because you know for a fact that using his intangibility is the reason why no one could catch him. If you really look up to Madara because of his repetitive use of that tactic, then I have every right to call your words idiotic. Don't take my words so literally, you'll hurt yourself and only bring forth frustration upon yourself.[/QUOTE]

I addressed this in the 1st paragraph.

bertjor
10-16-2010, 09:51 AM
1) It does hold some bearing, just not a lot.

I am afraid I do not understand fully what that means. Either it does influence the final conclusion, or it doesn't.

2) a) I can wait.
b) We still do not know how much he used his. While it was less than Sasuke, we cannot tell anything further than that.

As I said previously, yes we do. We can deduce it from how much Sasuke used his, because from itachi's own words- the more one summons MS, the more it loses its light. Now, one may argue that there is a difference from a user to user, but that is a strech. That is the actual assumption that is difficult to make- itachi's words refer to the USE OF THE EYE, not relating to ITS USER.

c) Ah, but we do not know if that is completely true as we have only one instance to compare it to. For all we know (however unlikely it is), most Uchiha who have unlocked it have easily brought out its full form (again, unlikely, but still).

That would make Sasuke one of the most incapable MS users ever. Considering he mastered how to mold amaterasu around susanoo bones, as well as activating the Susanoo (which, I believe is a rarety for a MS user to do).

Also, Itachi's staged form (at one point, complete, at other bones and so on durign his fight with Sasuke) contributes to this possibility. It is cleary not a merely activated/deactivated form.

Basically, there is evidence proving that Susanoo needs to be developed. The oposite of that has no evidence, only a sensible possibility. For that matter, we may also state that there is a possibility Shishui couldn't bring himself kill Itachi, and he let himself be killed.

As for Itachi not having the emotional circumstances, I have to disagree. We know that wiping out his clan and leaving his brother all alone like that affected him. As for the rest of his life, we know nothing of circumstances that would have affected susano'o, but that does not mean there were none. And his body was most likely not that ravaged by the disease yet. I don't think it was a fast acting disease, but rather a slower one that takes over the body with time.
Sasuke is not anywhere near having the genius Itachi was. Everything Sasuke has done was with luck and random powerups. He is nothing like Itachi and never will be.

We know that Susanoo was not activated during the attack, for many previously mentioned and other reasons. I agree that we do not know much about his life, but here is what we do know:

- Itachi is an S-class criminal, yet Konoha had no idea where he was, and did not even know where to start. That is kinda difficult when you keep leaving dead bodies from fights.

- He joined an organization that was not very known, because they did not do anything important or drastic to be known about. I am not saying he was not involved in fights- itachi's MS was pretty blurred by the time he faced sasuke, and he wouldn't have used it unless necessary. But considering its the span of several years, I'd say that's a few big fights.

- What emotional circumstances would a man have AFTER he killed everyone he knew and the only thing left alive (Sasuke), he did not see?

3) Itachi is not one to allow that to happen. He is a genius after all. Maybe not the type of genius Shikamaru is, but a genius nonetheless. And he does have abilities outside of his Sharingan that I am sure we never saw.

True, but I am sure they cannot match the versitility and power of Jiraiya's. Otherwise, we wouldn't have used MS so much, which has quite a toll.

4) Yeah, Jiraiya definitely is not a genjutsu type person, and neither is Naruto.
Note that Jiraiya was the one who brought up genjutsu, and Naruto only wanted to learn until he was told that it isn't his thing. Then he didn't hesitate to give up.

But my basic argument was that the lack of knowledge in fighting genjutsu is in part of Jiraiya's lack of knowledge, not Naruto's unwilligness.

5) I still doubt they fought back to back. I am certain that Itachi had to face many of his opponents alone (and unaware).

I agree, but when you have stealth and suprise on your side, things change significantely.

Still, the ability to catch most of the clan by surprise is no small feat. You have to be skilled in order to pull it off, and quick. I think there is a bit of a difference between Pain's secret and Itachi's surprise attack.

I was refering to the fact that other things are important besides abilities- like knowing your opponent, and suprise attacks. These things can tip the ballance, no matter how strong your opponent is, and it is shown in naruto.

6) Sasuke may not be bright when he is fighting against Itachi, but if he didn't land hits, then I am sure he would realize Itachi was trying to drain his chakra and stop using large amounts of it.

My theory stems from one very simple logical deduction- WHY? Why would he allow himself to get hit, if in no way influences if he drains Sasuke's chakra or not? There are so many ways he can provoke sasuke to use his chakra. why would he let himself be harmed? We also have Zetsu saying that he should have avoided that attack, and the fact he was diseased.

Off topic: I know, not being able to post the links is always a pain lol.

We're getting there, don't worry :)))



I apologize for that. No, I do not think that Itachi faced Shisui head on, but we cannot say for sure if Shisui got the chance to fight back at all. He may have been wounded very badly and managed to give Itachi a little trouble before he was finally killed. Whether he did or not, we don't know, but I definitely do not believe Itachi and Shisui actually battled face to face from the start. Also, sneaking up and managing to attack Shisui without him noticing was no small feat in itself I am sure.

I think you are underestimating the Uchiha Clan. The Uchiha were the rivals to the Senju after all, so I don't think they are quite as weak as you are making them out to be. If every (or at least most) of the shinobi in the ANBU went in during the dead of night, sure they would probably take out the Uchiha with few casualties, but they would need those numbers.



Well I know the final outcome was intended, but I was referring to what he intended about the events of the battle as he really had no way of knowing what Sasuke would bring out. I know Sasuke is pretty much outclassed by Itachi if Itachi wanted to win, but I am sure there is a small chance that Sasuke could have surprised him and managed to land a hit.
So you agree that Itachi was capable of fighting hand to hand with an opponent equal to himself?

It depends on how you measure capability: Its one thing to have it, and another to have the necessary circumstances to use it. Itachi may be an excellent taijutsu user, but his disease does not allow him to base an attack on taijutsu, as he cannot sustain it. Another example would be Naruto summoning Gamabunta: he had the capability, but it took the correct life-or-death circumstances to be able to unlock that capability.

As for the whole Shishui debate: No matter how you cut it, nothing changes the end result- Itachi won. Now, whether it was because of his ability being bigger than Shishui, or his genius at planning and executing a suprise attack,the fact remains- he bested Shishui. It does not matter. What Itachi lacks in ability he probably makes up with genius and execution. The fact that he was named Shishui the Body Flicker tells us that he had some renown to him, as we have met only exceptional ninja receiving such titles.

Achilles
10-17-2010, 05:09 PM
How rhetorical are you right now? You claim that I belittle your thoughts, but now you're insulting me to my face. Aren't you basically pushing yourself into the same category that you put me in? Ignorant to the bone you are.

Talking to a man like that where I live is cause to get your ass beat.

This is hilarious. You're such a child man. Who gives a threat like this anymore?

You seem incapable of differentiating the two. My little viewpoint?

If I had that problem, I wouldn't have called it little. Being able to understand the "little" evidence you have given to prove your side of the story on both characters is one thing, but to completely refuse to look at it that way and take it as an insult is just immature. Did I really need to explain that to you Mister Big Shot? You really think threatening me is doing you or your words any justice or making me seem like a bad guy? You're still making yourself out to be the same ignorant individual I knew since I came to this site. You seem to take things too literal when I speak, especially when none of the things I said isn't as bad as what you said to me. The only word you caught was "little", yet you gave me a full paragraph of insults. Great job of making yourself different. You're just as ignorant; no different than what you're implying about me.

Lack of fact or any reason is no excuse to conduct yourself in such a manor when we are simply debating anime.

Right back at you bro.

I've told you this before and you chill out for a while but you always come back to your demeaning tone. Honestly I don't get it. I thought we were cool but you obviously don't respect me enough to debate without your little slanders. And don't call this shit me being sinsitive because you refuse to acknowledge your repetitively insolent ways. Look man, just chill out and debate. And you wonder why people be coming at you wrong.

Ikimichi, being honest bro, the words that I use shouldn't even cause such a reaction being that's how I debate. Show me one debate where I never had an "authoritative tone." If I wanted to pick a fight with you, you would know. If I was on the phone with you and called your words little, you would've had more of an understanding of how I said it than to how you assumed I said it. Like I said, I didn't mean anything insulting by the word that was given. You need to calm down and stop jumping to conclusions. How about asking me if I have a problem or why am I speaking that way before you jump to assumptions? I think that'll work better. I do recall the fact that I am human and we all have our little mood swings.
We are cool. If you would stop assuming things and adapt to the way I debate like 7th FAITH, then we won't have a problem. Then again, asking someone like you to adapt is like asking a fish to grow feet and start walking on land. You're incapable of having any kind of challenge come your way, especially when you're so quick to make assumptions based on the word "little." I have no grudge or ill feelings against you. If I did, I would completely avoid debating with you. How much ppl have you seen me debate with since I came back to the site? Only the ppl I know. You, Takken, 7th, Kengen, Shuhan......Do the math. When was the last time I had a problem with someone coming at me the wrong way? Seems like you're still living in the past my friend.

This Debate is over though; I lost my zeal to continue with someone as assuming as you. Maybe next time.

Lord Ikimichi
10-17-2010, 06:51 PM
How rhetorical are you right now? You claim that I belittle your thoughts, but now you're insulting me to my face. Aren't you basically pushing yourself into the same category that you put me in? Ignorant to the bone you are.



This is hilarious. You're such a child man. Who gives a threat like this anymore?



If I had that problem, I wouldn't have called it little. Being able to understand the "little" evidence you have given to prove your side of the story on both characters is one thing, but to completely refuse to look at it that way and take it as an insult is just immature. Did I really need to explain that to you Mister Big Shot? You really think threatening me is doing you or your words any justice or making me seem like a bad guy? You're still making yourself out to be the same ignorant individual I knew since I came to this site. You seem to take things too literal when I speak, especially when none of the things I said isn't as bad as what you said to me. The only word you caught was "little", yet you gave me a full paragraph of insults. Great job of making yourself different. You're just as ignorant; no different than what you're implying about me.



Right back at you bro.



Ikimichi, being honest bro, the words that I use shouldn't even cause such a reaction being that's how I debate. Show me one debate where I never had an "authoritative tone." If I wanted to pick a fight with you, you would know. If I was on the phone with you and called your words little, you would've had more of an understanding of how I said it than to how you assumed I said it. Like I said, I didn't mean anything insulting by the word that was given. You need to calm down and stop jumping to conclusions. How about asking me if I have a problem or why am I speaking that way before you jump to assumptions? I think that'll work better. I do recall the fact that I am human and we all have our little mood swings.
We are cool. If you would stop assuming things and adapt to the way I debate like 7th FAITH, then we won't have a problem. Then again, asking someone like you to adapt is like asking a fish to grow feet and start walking on land. You're incapable of having any kind of challenge come your way, especially when you're so quick to make assumptions based on the word "little." I have no grudge or ill feelings against you. If I did, I would completely avoid debating with you. How much ppl have you seen me debate with since I came back to the site? Only the ppl I know. You, Takken, 7th, Kengen, Shuhan......Do the math. When was the last time I had a problem with someone coming at me the wrong way? Seems like you're still living in the past my friend.

This Debate is over though; I lost my zeal to continue with someone as assuming as you. Maybe next time.

Debate aside you still wont acknowledge where I'm coming from. Just because that's alright with other people doesn't mean it's fine with me. You're the only person I have this problem with when debating here. This has nothing to do with me being capable of going back and worth with you. You know I can and this was hardly even about Itachi vs Jiraya as much as Itachi and Shisui's capabilities. An authoritive tone is no excuse to use the language you display.

And when I said niggas get beat up for talking like that it wasn't a threat. It was an example of how disrespectful you are being or are coming off as and me telling you how people would react here. Your tone aside, there should be a common level of respect and how we address each other and your style of speech should follow those same rules. You right man we ain't got no beef. We been through enough of that petty stuff and I rather prefer the days when we could have phone conversations and your tone was nothing like this. Just be mindful of how you sound because even if it seems fine with you it would seem different to others.

Achilles
10-17-2010, 08:14 PM
Debate aside you still wont acknowledge where I'm coming from. Just because that's alright with other people doesn't mean it's fine with me. You're the only person I have this problem with when debating here. This has nothing to do with me being capable of going back and worth with you. You know I can and this was hardly even about Itachi vs Jiraya as much as Itachi and Shisui's capabilities. An authoritive tone is no excuse to use the language you display.

I see you like going around in circles. Let me make this clear; Understanding someone goes along with the package of adapting. It's the same that you do with a female when you and her have completely different views on life. Exactly the point. Realize everyone else adapts or has adapted to the way I debate except you. Yes, you really do have a problem. What Language? Since when is "little" referred to as a language? You didn't understand the way in which I made the statement. You jumped to your assumptions a little too quickly my dude. That's just how you do; I'm not blaming you for that.

And when I said niggas get beat up for talking like that it wasn't a threat. It was an example of how disrespectful you are being or are coming off as and me telling you how people would react here. Your tone aside, there should be a common level of respect and how we address each other and your style of speech should follow those same rules.

Lolz, still you say I was disrespecting you. Whatever man. I already explained that. Let's hop off that topic. I've already come to terms with the person you are man and I respect you ok? All I'm asking is for you to not jump to crazy conclusions before making absolutely sure if I'm angry or have a problem with you. As you can see, I'm speaking to you with enough respect as I have been to everyone since I came back to the site. I don't want to fight.

You right man we ain't got no beef. We been through enough of that petty stuff and I rather prefer the days when we could have phone conversations and your tone was nothing like this. Just be mindful of how you sound because even if it seems fine with you it would seem different to others.

Yeah, it never sounded like that because we never discussed any debates of this sort on the phone bro. We mostly spoke on Girls and how stupid they are lolz. Correction bro, sounding is different from typing. I would like you to be more understanding, because I mean no offense, but I see no reason to change the way I type because of one person's problem with it, you feel me? That's like me telling you to stop saying NIGGA. Later Iki.

Kuro Ashi
10-18-2010, 12:17 AM
you're still going on this...
i thought this statement ended it

guys its as simple as this:-
Jiraya sees itachi and dies....

bertjor
10-18-2010, 12:23 AM
you're still going on this...
i thought this statement ended it

Even better- Itachi shows him the finger and Jiraiya dies...

Kuro Ashi
10-18-2010, 12:34 AM
Even better- Itachi shows him the finger and Jiraiya dies...

hahaha...lol
that killed me..;)

Darkkyuubi059
10-18-2010, 09:54 AM
um i gonna put my money on jaraiya

The Blue Shark
11-02-2010, 11:37 AM
To give a detailed explanation of who I think would win;

With Manga knowledge, Itachi would know of Toad Summons and presumably Rasengans, and would know of Jiraiya's strength [from his reputation], Jiraiya on the other hand would know of Tsukiyomi, and the danger of Amaterasu, for he did not see Itachi utilizing it, he has no knowledge of Susanō, and should know Itachi uses Genjutsu [being an Uchiha].

In the case of CQC, Itachi has a slight edge, he has superior speed, better Shunshin, and equal Taijutsu, and the Sharingan [either for surprise eye contact and then Genjutsu, or for assistance in overall CQC], whilst Jiraiya has the stamina and strength factors going on for him, but it's still not enough when Itachi can create Bunshins via had seals so fast the Sharingan cannot track them, Jiraiya might be fighting an exploding Bunshin Daibakuha fruitlessly, some believe Itachi lacks the firepower to injure Jiraiya in Taijutsu, but Kunais do the trick.

In the case of Genjutsu, this heavily depends on how Jiraiya fights Itachi, if he is careless than he is doomed, he would need the right Toad to be summoned in order to escape Itachi's Genjutsu [via Partner method] Jiraiya has a few Toads who are intelligent enough to recognize if Jiraiya is in a Genjutsu, if Jiraiya is caught in a paralyzing Genjutsu for example, it would seem obvious he is caught in one, if he is caught in Utakata for example; than it's up for interpretation, but personally I believe Jiraiya can escape it.

When it comes to Dōton: Yomi Numa v Itachi; I envision Itachi woul be utilizing his Sharingan to counter the effects of Yomi Numa, this probably will not work; for Dōton: Yomi Numa appears under the target's feet, unless Itachi has showcased previous knowledge of the technique, I will assume he gets caught. Dōton: Yomi Numa being considered instantaneous in some way seems completely ridiculous, There is no need nor any sort of evidence to claim it's instantaneous. And what does sinking something instantaneously even mean? That the moment the technique is cast, they've already sunk as far as they can sink? [depending on how deep it was] That's physically nonsense, and contradicts Dōton: Yomi Numa's Databook entry "The more you struggle, the more you sink". With that said, it would still be hard for Itachi to counter such a technique, however, I only envision Jiraiya utilizing it when Susanō is brought into the picture, since - ICly - he would attempt to sink the Giant war god, Itachi's Yata no Kagami is stated to nullify the effects of the Jutsu by countering it with the proper Chakra element, thus, we should assume it would utilize Raiton Chakra in order to save Itachi, the part that is in contact with the mirror would be nullified, Susanō is mobile, and can nullify the parts where Itachi is affected, thus rendering it a normal swamp, which Itachi can simply walk over with basic Chakra control.

As for Amaterasu, I interpret Hebi Sasuke briefly outrunning it as follows: There is a slight gap between the stare and the flames appearing on the designed target, it's completely redundant to believe Sasuke actually escaped Itachi's line of sight, that's nearly impossible to accomplish, Jiraiya in base would die, for he has no counter that I'm aware of, however in Sennin Mōdo he might outrun it for a while, or attempt to constantly peg Itachi with moves to prevent the usage of Amaterasu, plus, Itachi cannot continuously spam this technique.


it is often indicated that Itachi cannot catch Jiraiya in Genjutsu because as you can see up there; he's looking at the wall, but this is false, Jiraiya was speaking to Itachi and Kisame, which means he had Itachi's eyes within his Line of Sight, which is the requirement, he does not need to stare solely into Itachi's eyes for it to happen, bee when you speak with someone normally you would have their eye within your Line of Sight, Itachi and Kisame were close to each other, and Jiraiya's eyesight was somewhat between the two of them, so he [I]did have Itachi's eyes within his Line of Sight during that encounter.

We do not need any notion of Jiraiya catching Itachi's eyes, what we need is a notion of him not doing so, since speaking to someone without looking into their eyes is an abnormality that does require a mention I would say.

Jiraiya has not shown to know Gai's method, and I do not envision him trying a useless way to counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi without proper training and only to be severely handicapped in this fight.

So eventually, he is caught with Tsukiyomi, when you might ask? personally, I see him being caught in it right before Sennin Mōdo is achieved, even if not, definetly before Susano is brought into the picture, in my opinion.

We could account Jiraiya's high will power here, but I don't think it would be sufficient enough to stop Itachi from winning, I also like to add that I believed Jiraiya could trap Itachi with Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō after Tsukiyomi is cast [assumig he stays concious], however with the notion that Chikushōdō had an off panel brawl with Sennin Jiraiya in the dimension, its impossible to know how he was caught [it was off panel], and Chikushōdō still injuring Jiraiya's shoulder in that void do not look good for Jiraiya.

Sennin Mōdo being achieved or not is irrelevant to the consequence of this fight in my opinion; for even then Jiraiya has no answer to Tsukiyomi, and he would only increase the difficulty of Itachi winning, through superior CQC skill, rendering his base Genjutsu useless due to Jiraiya being more wary and the two Kage-level Genjutsu experts on his shoulders, and various Jutsu that will require Itachi to utilize his Mangekyō in order to counter properly, Itachi might not be the best Shinobi to outlast Jiraiya in a fight, however, he can defeat him through Tsukiyomi before that becomes a huge issue.

Scott
11-02-2010, 12:22 PM
Not being funny but how do these ppl ^ have the time to post essays lol

To put it simple, Jiraiya will win if he brings his toad mates along if he don't he loses

So yeah Itachi wins 1v1

The Blue Shark
11-04-2010, 01:35 PM
Not being funny but how do these ppl ^ have the time to post essays lol

I am more active in another forum, this is simply a copy/paste from one of my posts.

Drazaydra
11-11-2010, 08:29 PM
Definately itachi,

I know you're think JJ stoped Itachi and Kisame but actually if you remember they werent there for sasuke or naruto itachi was coming to tell danzo that madara was still alive. he didnt tell kisame so thats prolly why he had to pretend like he really wanted to fight he knew his priorities and nothing would get in the way sasuke first the villages safety second.

even when he fought kakashi, kakashi said he could've just killed me but he didnt... and why is that because he has no interest in killing konoha shinobi.

pein was too much for jiraiya, itachi is not only a sharingan barer, a genjustu master, and a superb ninja, he's a tactical genius

jaraiya's only chance of beating itachi would be to wear him down due to itachis lack of stamina, but I dont reall see that as a possibillity for jaraiya even with his chakra... honestly I think ot of all the konoha ninja, guy would have the best chance being he has the skill to combat the immediate effects of the sharigan and the stamina to wear itachi's down given that he was unable to fall into genjutsu

outcome

Itachi beats Jaraiya

Tysis
05-12-2011, 02:02 PM
There was a mini-thread going on inside the Pain vs Itachi thread so I decided to start this one to hopefully stop all that in there.

Jiraiya Vs. Itachi
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/316/3/d/r_i_p__jiraiya_and_itachi_by_mastertobi-d31u4u3.png
(This pic makes them look like friends, but they're just doing this pre-fight for the promo.)

-Both start 25m away from each other, inside the Uchiha hideout.
-Itachi isn't sick and his eyes are in perfect condition.
-Both are Bloodlusted.
-Both have 1 day prep-time.

Hoenn
05-12-2011, 02:38 PM
This one is a toughy but i'll give this one to the J-man

Itachi with perfect health and can see good will definitly help in out in the long run but he isnt much of the type to prepare for a fight before hand. With the power of sage mode all his stats increases but also since he will have the elder toads they can help ward off genjutsu Tsukuomi.

Jiraiya has time on his side on this one. With the 1 day head start he can come into the fight in sage mode. But also he can set up scroll seals, for him to seal the black fire Amaterasu.

Lastly with the area there in, the uchiha hideout, it is a big room but huge which if planned right he can summon them inside the stomach of the mountain frog which as weve seen few things can take out the walls and if combined with sage mode and the fire supressing scolls this would sevearly limit Itachi's movements.

Now for Itachi's trump card Susanoo.
The sword will be able to seal the toad frog permently and also anything it cuts. Susanoo fast attacker but it is only melee and in turn has a limited range. Jiraiya's sage mode will provide him with the speed to doge and keep his distance.

For the shield, it can block any attack which means rasengan and its variations alond with his fire stle jutsu will not have any affect. Also the collaberation genjutsu while powerful Itachi's MS kekkai genkai will be able to see through it and stop it. But Jiraiya also have his earth swamp jutsu. While not a jutsu that can be used offensivly but it will slow it down even just a bit.

In the end Susanoo uses up way to much chakra and the longer its out the quicker itachi will go down. Jiraiya's sage mode gives him constant chakra so he will be able to out last Itachi and will wear him down.

thegreatkage
05-12-2011, 03:18 PM
this tough one but i would have say well let look at this first when they head fought the first time looking for naruto him and kisame then Jiraiya showed up they fought then itachi and kisame fled but that was only because itachi head bad condition and idk about kisame but in perfect condition itachi would beat Jiraiya if Jiraiya could't handle pain theirs no way he could beat itachi in perfect condition

Hoenn
05-12-2011, 06:25 PM
this tough one but i would have say well let look at this first when they head fought the first time looking for naruto him and kisame then Jiraiya showed up they fought then itachi and kisame fled but that was only because itachi head bad condition and idk about kisame but in perfect condition itachi would beat Jiraiya if Jiraiya could't handle pain theirs no way he could beat itachi in perfect condition

Dude your way off
Itachi was a pacifist he didnt like fighting period.
Jiraiya could have beaten him and Pain himself stated he would have won if he new his secret from the start. He could have left sooner and lived but he stayed to find the secret and died giving the leaf that knowledge.

Itachi in perfect condition and was bloodlusted, he can be a super beast on the battlefield but Jiraiya would be the winner here in this fight.

Vassilli
05-12-2011, 07:15 PM
I see no firepower from Jiraiya capable of penetrating Itachi's Susanoo shield. It's basically the absolute defense, no shit will go through it.

One hit from his Totsuka sword and he's done for, the fact that Itachi's vision is in perfect health is just too much for Jiraiya to handle, the Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi spam will just make it impossible for him to do shit
Itachi can break through most Genjutsus with ease and can counter with one of his own.

I don't see Jiraiya winning this.

Darui
05-12-2011, 08:52 PM
This thread was done before i suggest the mods close this before a Shiz storm of itachi fanboys engulf this place .

Note I am not saying itachi would lose

Scott
05-12-2011, 11:18 PM
J man wins, was able to take on Pain

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 04:07 AM
J man wins, was able to take on Pain

And that leads us to.....nowhere?

Who says Itachi was no match for Pain with perfect health?

Kuro Ashi
05-13-2011, 05:30 AM
I thought there was a thread about this b4 .. anyway
I think itachi get this..
but not with ease..
And i think it's funny to think that itachi would instantly use Ametrasu/Tsukukyomi/susanoo to fight jiraya... Itachi never did that, he only used Ametrasu when he was in danger + to exhuast sasuke, and only used susano to defend against kirin + to release sasuke from orochi.

..HE is powerfull and has alot upon his sleeve : he cn look for his oponents weaknesses and find openings (because he was a master of sharingn ) + he is genius + very fast + master of genjutsu .... TO sum up :-
Mangekyo jutsus(Am. , Ts , Su,) + his speed + his eye sight + his genjutsus + his genuisness + skills = Very Difficult to beat...

However.. Jiraya is not the easy type to defeat .. he has alot of experience + rasengan + toad summonings + Sage mode....

Let's not forget that we never saw itachi going all out with his full health, but we saw jiraya going all out....
But I can't see jirya going on SM because it take a long time for him to do so .. That's why I can say that itachi got this...

but if jiraya got into SM it's another story (not implying tht itachi will loose )

sorry for the spelling mistake + grammer , I need to buy a new keyboard .

Darui
05-13-2011, 06:51 AM
And that leads us to.....nowhere?

Who says Itachi was no match for Pain with perfect health?

And so it begins.

Hoenn
05-13-2011, 09:17 AM
your forgetting the 1 day prep time, J-man would be coming into this fight in sage mode.

Susanoo is power but it is also his biggest weakness. It has a limited range and it goes through itachi's chakra like crazy so he might be able to hold it for a few minutes while J-man has constant chakra from sage mode, he would be able to outlast him.

Tysis
05-13-2011, 12:22 PM
This thread was done before i suggest the mods close this before a Shiz storm of itachi fanboys engulf this place .

I'm sure it has been done but I doubt with all the same battle conditions.

Plus I just wanted to make this to keep this debate from continuing in the "Pain vs Itachi" thread.

I see no firepower from Jiraiya capable of penetrating Itachi's Susanoo shield. It's basically the absolute defense, no shit will go through it.

One hit from his Totsuka sword and he's done for, the fact that Itachi's vision is in perfect health is just too much for Jiraiya to handle, the Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi spam will just make it impossible for him to do shit
Itachi can break through most Genjutsus with ease and can counter with one of his own.

I don't see Jiraiya winning this.

Well remember Itachi can't maintain Susanoo for extended periods of time, and with Jiraiya being in SM, Itachi can't really afford to not be in Susanoo.

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 03:12 PM
@Darui: I won't be paying any attention to you, at least if you do not debate, your wanking is huge so pointing out i'm wanking (even though im not) is just hypocritic.

On topic: Itachi doesnt need extended peroids of time, Amaterasu and Totsuka will seal him the deal. Hell, if Jiraiya wasnt in SM Tsukuyomi would do it

Darui
05-13-2011, 03:38 PM
@Darui: I won't be paying any attention to you, at least if you do not debate, your wanking is huge so pointing out i'm wanking (even though im not) is just hypocritic.

On topic: Itachi doesnt need extended peroids of time, Amaterasu and Totsuka will seal him the deal. Hell, if Jiraiya wasnt in SM Tsukuyomi would do it

Ok fanboy whatever you say I'm not being a hypocrite why? Because o admit my wank you on the othe hand is just wanker.

Tell me why exactly itachi canntake pain ?

If you had any common sense pain has larger chakra reserves than itachi and stamina by his fight with naruto.

You sir are just the making an argument out nonsense And calling it a debate.


Susanno is a trump card you understand the meaning of that do you ? I bet you don't the minute he release that it's a double edge sword and more harm to itachi than jman because susannoo doesn't move fast .


Making you a wanker because your argument is invalid while I can explain how itachi can take this fight without the need of susanoo

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 03:50 PM
Anyone else with valid arguments and not just plain stupidity?

Darui
05-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Anyone else with valid arguments and not just plain stupidity?

" Yo dogg itachi just shoot ameratsu on jman in SM and gg". Yep son this comment is very ironic lulz wanker wank

I find it funny you don't provide a valid argument and u act as your making valid points

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 04:39 PM
What I did there was an introduction to my debating position, I do intend on debating further but theres no point if everyone's just going to pust one sentence talking shit like you do son..

Darui
05-13-2011, 04:45 PM
What I did there was an introduction to my debating position, I do intend on debating further but theres no point if everyone's just going to pust one sentence talking shit like you do son..

Um you do realize everyone just explain how jman can win with susanoo out only you are wanking nonsense like "ameratsu" and tsyukomi wank .

I it's been what 4 posts and u haven't presented a valid argument but nice cover with the whole " introduction " cover I give it 2/10 for the effort.
Present a case or just back in ur corner and sulk .

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 05:04 PM
How are my points not valid now?

Jiraiya has shown no speed feats that indicate that he is capable of dodging Amaterasu.

Jiraiya has shown no durability feats that could stand being hit by such an attack

Itachi is a master of Genjutsu, in which Jiraiya falls miles behind him, if he isnt on sage mode then he won't be able to snap out of Tsukuyomi. Even if he was, Itachi could place all three of them under a Genjutsu without them noticing shit.

Toad summonings are slow and could be easily sealed by Itachi's Totsuka sword, or burnt to ashes with Amaterasu

Your turn

Shinemonkey
05-13-2011, 05:36 PM
Wait how fast it Jiraya?

Vongola
05-13-2011, 06:38 PM
yea...jman doesn't stand a chance...wtf were you smoking
DZnx-h8MElk

4eoYqWE

and as for the speed of ameterasu i'm pretty sure sage mode would be faster
xfx1qHuBZyg

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 06:48 PM
You have seen what level of speed is needed to dodge Amaterasu, Sasuke evaded it by jogging just because Itachi wasn't being serious but wanted to look like he was.

Did I say Jiraiya doesnt stand a chance? All I said is that he has not enough firepower to take down Itachi's Susanoo nor dodge his ranged attacks.

Vongola
05-13-2011, 06:56 PM
yes itachi wanted to look like he was serious but if you look at the speed of that amaterasu it's still going pretty dam fast and if i recall that's about as fast as it gets and since we're talking feats here there as been no scene of amaterasu going even half as fast so we have to base speed off of that. now sage mode jiraiya easily moves faster then itachi's eyes can keep up with and true while you didn't say he didn't stand a chance i only just read the whole thread because i felt that after i saw the post that darui quoted that it was no point in even listening to what you had to say because right now your only making yourself seem like you actually know the abilities of itachi because your backed into a corner and you refuse to give up i'll give you that but dude just stop because i don't wanna have to embarrass you here (wait i just did) so relax and take notes or go do homework or something :3 (just trying to help)

with that i'm leaving..don't even bother to reply to my post because i wont look at what you have to say AT ALL and i'm not saying that itachi would lose either so just chill i'm saying that jiraiya isn't going to be done in by a amaterasu

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 07:17 PM
So your point on even posting was..?

EDIT: lol at these kids in battledome saying they pwn ppl but dont debate at all..

Vongola
05-13-2011, 07:22 PM
see i was lying about the whole i wont even read your post thing i just wanted to see your reaction

and about people not people not debating at all i'm willing to debate but with someone who's also willing to Listen you can't debate only thinking your right while having no thought of even CONSIDERing what the other party has to say :D

Vassilli
05-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Actually, I would really like to hear what the other side has to say, since all I see is "Jiraiya stomps" "I would pwn you so badly but I wont for some bullshit reason".

Why dont you start it then?:p

Vongola
05-13-2011, 07:40 PM
This one is a toughy but i'll give this one to the J-man

Itachi with perfect health and can see good will definitly help in out in the long run but he isnt much of the type to prepare for a fight before hand. With the power of sage mode all his stats increases but also since he will have the elder toads they can help ward off genjutsu Tsukuomi.

Jiraiya has time on his side on this one. With the 1 day head start he can come into the fight in sage mode. But also he can set up scroll seals, for him to seal the black fire Amaterasu.

Lastly with the area there in, the uchiha hideout, it is a big room but huge which if planned right he can summon them inside the stomach of the mountain frog which as weve seen few things can take out the walls and if combined with sage mode and the fire supressing scolls this would sevearly limit Itachi's movements.

Now for Itachi's trump card Susanoo.
The sword will be able to seal the toad frog permently and also anything it cuts. Susanoo fast attacker but it is only melee and in turn has a limited range. Jiraiya's sage mode will provide him with the speed to doge and keep his distance.

For the shield, it can block any attack which means rasengan and its variations alond with his fire stle jutsu will not have any affect. Also the collaberation genjutsu while powerful Itachi's MS kekkai genkai will be able to see through it and stop it. But Jiraiya also have his earth swamp jutsu. While not a jutsu that can be used offensivly but it will slow it down even just a bit.

In the end Susanoo uses up way to much chakra and the longer its out the quicker itachi will go down. Jiraiya's sage mode gives him constant chakra so he will be able to out last Itachi and will wear him down.

I thought there was a thread about this b4 .. anyway
I think itachi get this..
but not with ease..
And i think it's funny to think that itachi would instantly use Ametrasu/Tsukukyomi/susanoo to fight jiraya... Itachi never did that, he only used Ametrasu when he was in danger + to exhuast sasuke, and only used susano to defend against kirin + to release sasuke from orochi.

..HE is powerfull and has alot upon his sleeve : he cn look for his oponents weaknesses and find openings (because he was a master of sharingn ) + he is genius + very fast + master of genjutsu .... TO sum up :-
Mangekyo jutsus(Am. , Ts , Su,) + his speed + his eye sight + his genjutsus + his genuisness + skills = Very Difficult to beat...

However.. Jiraya is not the easy type to defeat .. he has alot of experience + rasengan + toad summonings + Sage mode....

Let's not forget that we never saw itachi going all out with his full health, but we saw jiraya going all out....
But I can't see jirya going on SM because it take a long time for him to do so .. That's why I can say that itachi got this...

but if jiraya got into SM it's another story (not implying tht itachi will loose )

sorry for the spelling mistake + grammer , I need to buy a new keyboard .

your forgetting the 1 day prep time, J-man would be coming into this fight in sage mode.

Susanoo is power but it is also his biggest weakness. It has a limited range and it goes through itachi's chakra like crazy so he might be able to hold it for a few minutes while J-man has constant chakra from sage mode, he would be able to outlast him.

I'm sure it has been done but I doubt with all the same battle conditions.

Plus I just wanted to make this to keep this debate from continuing in the "Pain vs Itachi" thread.



Well remember Itachi can't maintain Susanoo for extended periods of time, and with Jiraiya being in SM, Itachi can't really afford to not be in Susanoo.

they don't say jiraiya stomps at all they say he wins but with difficulty and i agree with this because of sage mode if sage mode wasn't present it would have been a 1sided rape(not even a fight) but with sage mode here comes the point that you only get stronger as the fight last longer so most ninjas are at a disadvantage while fighting someone who's able to use sage mode and btw if you go back to jiraiya's last fight his summonings weren't slow at all and his little toads on his shoulders are able to produce genjustu and break it as well while he's able to focus on other things such as attacking also jiraiya has been in countless more fights then itachi and therefore most likely has more battle sense....i have more for jiraiya but i'll leave it at that and i also have a pretty decent itachi argument worked up

Darui
05-13-2011, 09:00 PM
You see I wasn't arguing jman wins I was telling stop this Ms tech spam or right off the bat wank to underestimate the other guy. It was nonsense and clearly fanboyism .

Itachi can win but he can't be using those techniques off the bat jman as better stamina and healing factors for prologue fighting that itachi does not have.

In order for itachi to win he has to let jman enter a genjutsu which he is not aware of in sage mode like he did sasuke abd naruto. If he try's the susanoo trick he'll fall before jman I guarantee that much since jman won't be charging in recklessly .

NemesisQ
05-13-2011, 09:22 PM
ha.. Itachi all the way, pretty much jiraiya is one of the three sannin BUT remember the is a dunce(naruto like) hes also had 50+ years to work on it, but the Sharingan eye Mk or not are simple put the tie breaking!! Itachi is an uchiha of the highest level, (losing to Sasuke was due to illness) if itachi is in his prime he would work jiriya sage mode or not.. This is due to sage modes abilities for only enhancing ones senses and physical strengths.. and the summons thing is correct way to slow for an actual hand to hand battle.. The Sharingan Eyes allow one to precive anothers movements and counter at any cost and with a dodge or an attack, also saving chakara in doing so.. so hand to hand = Itachi, um.. what else is there for jiriya then Rasengan? no too slow, fire? Uchiha's are fire!! oh yeah and Susannoo undeated plus sword of sealing, Amaterasu only few people are fast enough as the Raikage or the flash of the leaf, and Tsukuyomi = genjestu that no one can compare too!! even a second would mess up jiraiyas day... Itachi bro!!

Jiraiyas kinda cool tho.. i personally like Orochimaru if i could choose blahahaha

Plus think of this: just food for thought, if Orochimaru wasnt even par or even close to par with Itachi, Then what in gods name makes anyone think jiraiya would have a better chance... Jiraiya couldnt even save Orochimaru or the third at that... please and itachi made Root(special ops) at age 13!! who else has done so or even close

Vongola
05-14-2011, 02:05 AM
ha.. Itachi all the way, pretty much jiraiya is one of the three sannin BUT remember the is a dunce(naruto like) hes also had 50+ years to work on it, but the Sharingan eye Mk or not are simple put the tie breaking!! Itachi is an uchiha of the highest level, (losing to Sasuke was due to illness) if itachi is in his prime he would work jiriya sage mode or not.. This is due to sage modes abilities for only enhancing ones senses and physical strengths.. and the summons thing is correct way to slow for an actual hand to hand battle.. The Sharingan Eyes allow one to precive anothers movements and counter at any cost and with a dodge or an attack, also saving chakara in doing so.. so hand to hand = Itachi, um.. what else is there for jiriya then Rasengan? no too slow, fire? Uchiha's are fire!! oh yeah and Susannoo undeated plus sword of sealing, Amaterasu only few people are fast enough as the Raikage or the flash of the leaf, and Tsukuyomi = genjestu that no one can compare too!! even a second would mess up jiraiyas day... Itachi bro!!


lmao dude have you even read the other post....academy students so cute lol but seriously do some more research jiraiya isnt hopeless in the fight

Vongola
05-14-2011, 02:19 AM
Plus think of this: just food for thought, if Orochimaru wasnt even par or even close to par with Itachi, Then what in gods name makes anyone think jiraiya would have a better chance... Jiraiya couldnt even save Orochimaru or the third at that... please and itachi made Root(special ops) at age 13!! who else has done so or even close

i'm pretty sure sai's been in root for a while and jiraiya was regarded as the strongest of the sanin but also the most naive

Pharaoh
05-14-2011, 06:36 AM
Alot of you guys for itachi are making your arguments worse. In no case this is a rape thread though. First off, although jiraiya may have been a naive shinobi when he was in battle he was shown to be very analytical and strategic maybe one of the best in the whole series. Jiraiya in battle is a whole other person. He's a very strong shinobi, definitely top 10. Itachi has the advantages, but if they get a day of prep time jiraiya can weaken itachi's advantages with his sage mode. I don't think amaterasu would be a problem for jiraiya. If gaara's sand could block it, i think jiraiya can create a substance to block it as well. His oil would work. Haha, amaterasu on oil, but anyways genjutsu would be itachi's best choice in this fight, but he'd have to put the toads and jiraiya under the spell. If he doesn't then it's about over for him. Taijutsu easily goes to jiraiya, although itachi is also very proficient in taijutsu. Ninjutsu goes to itachi, although jiraiya has really useful techniques. Right now they're about even in this fight, but once we move on to stamina, defense, and speed we get somewhere. Jiraiya wins stamina, itachi wins defense because of susanoo, but jiraiya also has summonings as well which would help boost his defense. If itachi wants to amaterasu his summonings it'll take time to prepare and jiraiya would take opportunity of that window, so that wouldn't be his best option. Jiraiya would probably win the fight due to numbers not to mention his chakra reserves are much higher than itachi's. Although i like itachi a lot, im gonna have to give this one to jiraiya due to his experience and his summonings and the amount of jutsu he has over itachi. No more susanoo talk because that would tire itachi out and i know that jiraiya can make itachi use his chakra up before getting hit. He is the infiltration/espionage master of the series for heaven's sake. He'll be able to escape.

Darui
05-14-2011, 07:00 AM
For the record orochimaru strength was not combat abilities but his brain in experimentations sure he was stronger than most others but i am sure jman had him beat due to the fact he just researches while i bet jman was perfecting his skills.

Shinemonkey
05-14-2011, 08:01 AM
Scenerio 1: in sage mode uses that needle thing. Itachi uses fire style burning the needles; Jiraya goes up close while Itachy is recovering from the tiny recoil. Jiraya being pretty fast manages to get up to itachy but itachi being more proficient with the sharingan looks at jiraya putting him under genjutsu and amaterasuing him. Jiraya starting with ma and pa though might make a big difference. Oh wait no Itachi uses susano'o spins around and cuts everything in the room problem

Hoenn
05-14-2011, 11:12 AM
my god this is horrible. So many fanboys here riding itachi hard and there arguments are getting worse by the second.

The day prep time, J-man is coming into battle in sage mode and carrying fire sealing scolls just for Amaterasu. Which also as we seen goes fast but can be outran by the more faster people such as sasuke and A. Sage mode will give the user the speed to do that as well. And everybody here is forgetting the kickback recoil from the use of just a single MS jutsu. Itachi had to turn off his sharingan after only using 1 amaterasu and tsukuomi to deal with the stress and blindness.

As we have seen so far Itachi has only been able to put one person under genjutsu with Tsukuomi at a time. If he got Jman the two elder toads will bring him out that very second due to them being fused.

Now for the thing you Itachi wankers love, Susanoo. Itachi uses it as a last resort and ITS FOR A REASON. It takes up massive amounts of chakra and strains the body so he can hold it off for maybe a few minutes. The sword it uses is MELEE which means a very limited range and as we seen it isnt very fast and is pretty much stuck in the same area. The sheild blocks anything so no point attacking from the front, The back would be the best choice due to few bones and no shield there.

The best tactic for Jman to use his sage mode speed to stay away from him and let Itachi wear himself down.

Personally im a fan of Itachi BECAUSE he doesnt spam his MS jutsu like sasuke which you wankers are doing right now.

Jman in his sage has better taijutsu and desnt even have t land a blw to hurt someone and can take massive damage.

Itachi's genjutsu is far more powerful but sagemode takes it out of the fight since the two frogs can pull him out.

There about equal in Ninjutsu but J-man takes this. This is because of his ability to collaborate jutsu with the other toads. One can spit oil the other fire and it will be more powerful than Itachi using a normal fire jutsu.

Jiraiya also has the ability to use summon's they may not do much, but they would be able to slow down Itachi a bit or if he was to use his MS by time and take some of those jutsu which would hurt him even more.

Jiraiya brings to the table the ability to change the terrain from putting them all in the stomach of a mountain toad which only a few things can break out of. And turning the whole field into a swamp so slow down something as bulky as Susanoo.

Itachi is a beast and nobody can deny that, but you have to make better arguments than "Itachi can just spam MS jutsu and automatically win" think before you post

Shinemonkey
05-14-2011, 12:54 PM
Sasuke never dodged amaterasu as it eventually caught up to him and Itachi wasnt even trying. A dodged it cause he's as ffast as minato or something and Jiraya may be fast but not that fast as A. And for the time it takes Jiraya to pull out that scroll itachi couldve already won

NemesisQ
05-14-2011, 02:31 PM
haha, nice actually have people that want to discuss matters..
but idont know about all this nonsense over itachi and jiraiya, personally this boils down to personal preference?
I feel jiraiya has more experience on the field then Itachi, and a wider ranged arsenal, but less battle defining moves..
(Hoenn)
"Jiraiya brings to the table the ability to change the terrain from putting them all in the stomach of a mountain toad which only a few things can break out of. And turning the whole field into a swamp so slow down something as bulky as Susanoo."

throwing that into the picture, i feel that jiraiya would have to work for it, using every trick in his bag to defeat Itachi..
but i still would like to believe Itachi would win, and im just a hella fan of Akastsuki,
"bad guys are cooler than good guys!!"
blahahaah naive.. come on now, inexperienced at this posting thing yes... haaha naive

and where would i have to look to find the new released: Ultimo "K-Douji" ..
i would like to finish the series if possible..
any suggestions or info, be much appreciated

Delaz
05-14-2011, 04:11 PM
Did someone say this was done before?

Link it and i'll lock it.

Shinemonkey
05-14-2011, 06:51 PM
Hey Delaz I got the thread
RIGHT HERE! OH!!

See here it is but it was made in the 09s. Can't link it but just search Jiraiya vs Itachy

KyuubiDemonYoko
05-14-2011, 06:56 PM
http://forums.saiyanisland.com/showthread.php?t=17788&highlight=Jiraiya+Itachi

So close this one? Or merge?

Your call Delaz.

Shinemonkey
05-14-2011, 07:00 PM
Either way Itachi wins every aspect of this fight. If Jiraiya uses taijutsu Itachi has a big middle finger cheat code shield and a alt f4 black fire. Jiraiya uses swamp it slows Itachi down and you're saying that like itachi can't jump. Jiraiya stays far away and uses long rang attacks. Itachi has them too. Jiraiya uses scrolls. Itachi uses explosive kunai. Jiraiyas best bet is to use ma and pa and that still doesnt assure him a win

Delaz
05-14-2011, 07:37 PM
merge broski