Bleach Chapter 370 Discussion/ 371 Predictions

[Six Paths Sage]

http://manga.saiyanisland.com/Bleach/370

[Dipset077]

English is out:
http://manga.saiyanisland.com/Bleach

Hey I made a new thread before I noticed this one. Can a mod close it if I did something wrong?

[Kurogashi]

The "God's" death was pretty lame, imo. I am a person who likes flashy death and dying by your own power is kind of lame, especially if it eats you away slowly.. Well that being said, it is clever.. good chapter I guess. It was about time someone shut him up.

[RavenArchangel]

I think all the Epsada are Vastro Lorde anyways, I mean an Adhujas has a mask and isn't as humanoid, amirite?

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

I think all the Epsada are Vastro Lorde anyways, I mean an Adhujas has a mask and isn't as humanoid, amirite?

Actually, not all are Vasto Lorde. Aaraniero was openely stated to have been a Gillian. Szayel, Zomari, Grimmjow, Nnoitra, Halibel, and Barragan i'm for sure aren't. Zomari got whooped by Byakuya, Szayel wasn't strong enough over all. Grimmjow was weaker then Nnoitra and almost all of the others listed, Nnoitra got defeated by the third weakest captain Kenpachi. Halibel was beat by Toshiro and yes she lived, she wouldn't have been hurt like that if she was Vasto Lorde. From the recent chapter it would seem as though Barragan was beat by two fat guys and a one armed b*tch.

[RavenArchangel]

Actually, not all are Vasto Lorde. Aaraniero was openely stated to have been a Gillian. Szayel, Zomari, Grimmjow, Nnoitra, Halibel, and Barragan i'm for sure aren't. Zomari got whooped by Byakuya, Szayel wasn't strong enough over all. Grimmjow was weaker then Nnoitra and almost all of the others listed, Nnoitra got defeated by the third weakest captain Kenpachi. Halibel was beat by Toshiro and yes she lived, she wouldn't have been hurt like that if she was Vasto Lorde. From the recent chapter it would seem as though Barragan was beat by two fat guys and a one armed b*tch.
But that can't be because there doesn't exsist somthing in between Adujas and Vastro Lorde and its clearly shown Vastro Lordes looking more humanoid than the example for Adhujas here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow

Besides, how could Grimmjow NOT be a Vastro Lorde? He shows his Adujas form here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Grimmjow_Adjuchas.png

As you can see, Aizen made them into Espada and he wants Vastro Lordes so how could he possibly not be one if that's all Aizen wants? Besides, as we can see, Grimmjow clearly had a lot of power, and Barragan's power was able to do what it did with his powers based on old age death..how can THAT be Adujas? Halibel clearly was fighting Toshiro, who imo is not an average captain. It lists that Vastro Lorde are stronger than the AVERAGE captain, but based on his age we can tell he's no average captain.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

But that can't be because there doesn't exsist somthing in between Adujas and Vastro Lorde and its clearly shown Vastro Lordes looking more humanoid than the example for Adhujas here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow

Besides, how could Grimmjow NOT be a Vastro Lorde? He shows his Adujas form here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Grimmjow_Adjuchas.png

As you can see, Aizen made them into Espada and he wants Vastro Lordes so how could he possibly not be one if that's all Aizen wants? Besides, as we can see, Grimmjow clearly had a lot of power, and Barragan's power was able to do what it did with his powers based on old age death..how can THAT be Adujas? Halibel clearly was fighting Toshiro, who imo is not an average captain. It lists that Vastro Lorde are stronger than the AVERAGE captain, but based on his age we can tell he's no average captain.

Adhuchas can sometimes look like humans and the Numeros are weaker then the Espada. Ulquiorra was so strong that he was able to use a form that no other Espada could use, let alone Grimmjow. Not to mention how much weaker his Fraccion were compared to Grimmjow himself, are you saying they are Vasto Lorde? Now look at Halibel and Barragan, Halibel was at first defeated by the weakest captain, Toshiro. Ulquiorra killed Ichigo who was stronger then Toshiro. Barragan was losing to an Injured Soifon, a liutenant, and someone who wasn't even a Soul Reaper. So there for they couldn't possibly be Vasto Lorde.

[RavenArchangel]

Adhuchas can sometimes look like humans and the Numeros are weaker then the Espada. Ulquiorra was so strong that he was able to use a form that no other Espada could use, let alone Grimmjow. Not to mention how much weaker his Fraccion were compared to Grimmjow himself, are you saying they are Vasto Lorde? Now look at Halibel and Barragan, Halibel was at first defeated by the weakest captain, Toshiro. Ulquiorra killed Ichigo who was stronger then Toshiro. Barragan was losing to an Injured Soifon, a liutenant, and someone who wasn't even a Soul Reaper. So there for they couldn't possibly be Vasto Lorde.
Wow..I'm not sure what to say to that. I guess you're right, they can't be Vastro Lorde..oh wait. There's one thing: maybe there IS a level in between so to speak dude. Notice it says here:

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Arrancar

all it lists an arrancar as is at least a Adhujas that has his masked removed. Thats got to be the in between. Basically if an Adhujas has his mask removed, he's better than most of his kind, but not a Vastro Lordes level..well I guess I lost this debate, but in a way I was right lol That explains why Ichigo beat Ulquira..he must be the next stage after that even..he can put his mask back on, like a Vizard but its basically a hollow putting ITS mask back on AFTER being a Vastro Lorde..the ultimate Hollow form!

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Wow..I'm not sure what to say to that. I guess you're right, they can't be Vastro Lorde..oh wait. There's one thing: maybe there IS a level in between so to speak dude. Notice it says here:

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Arrancar

all it lists an arrancar as is at least a Adhujas that has his masked removed. Thats got to be the in between. Basically if an Adhujas has his mask removed, he's better than most of his kind, but not a Vastro Lordes level..well I guess I lost this debate, but in a way I was right lol That explains why Ichigo beat Ulquira..he must be the next stage after that even..he can put his mask back on, like a Vizard but its basically a hollow putting ITS mask back on AFTER being a Vastro Lorde..the ultimate Hollow form!

In a way it is the in between, it isn't VL but it isn't average Adhuchas. Exactly, and that's why I think that when an Adhuchas has his mask removed and becomes a VL and has it placed back on like a Vaizard then it becomes the ultimate hollow, just like Ichigo when he fought Ulquiorra.

[RavenArchangel]

In a way it is the in between, it isn't VL but it isn't average Adhuchas. Exactly, and that's why I think that when an Adhuchas has his mask removed and becomes a VL and has it placed back on like a Vaizard then it becomes the ultimate hollow, just like Ichigo when he fought Ulquiorra.
Damn dude. Smart theory and you beat me in a debate. +rep. You earned it.

EDIT: Damn just read the new chapter! Holy crap! but yeah, yet more proof that Barragin isn't a Vastro Lorde. But yeah I bet we agree that Wonderwiess defiantly is.

[Yuki-chan12]

the gods death was pretty lame, but thts one of them down.......i can't believe hachi cut off his arm though, but it worked. i can't wait to see nexts week manga.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

the gods death was pretty lame, but thts one of them down.......i can't believe hachi cut off his arm though, but it worked. i can't wait to see nexts week manga.

That wasn't expected but it was very smart when Hachi cut his own arm off. I also can't wait for the new Bleach to come out. It's wierd, you know, two of the three people fighting Barragan lost an arm before his death. It's also wierd, Espada 2 died while Espada 3 still lives. We were fooled with Yammy going from 10 to 0 Espada so maybe Halibel and Barragan switched their numbers. This is just an unconfirmed theory but it's possible. I'm certain that Starrk is 1 though.

[Zack Fair]

Adhuchas can sometimes look like humans and the Numeros are weaker then the Espada. Ulquiorra was so strong that he was able to use a form that no other Espada could use, let alone Grimmjow. Not to mention how much weaker his Fraccion were compared to Grimmjow himself, are you saying they are Vasto Lorde? Now look at Halibel and Barragan, Halibel was at first defeated by the weakest captain, Toshiro. Ulquiorra killed Ichigo who was stronger then Toshiro. Barragan was losing to an Injured Soifon, a liutenant, and someone who wasn't even a Soul Reaper. So there for they couldn't possibly be Vasto Lorde.

Well, you're actually incorrect on a number of things here. Adjuchas never look like humans. Ever. The only species of Hollow that remotely resemble humans, are the Arrancar. Even a Vasto Lorde is only the size of a human, but still looks hollow. It would still have a full mask, being that VL is just the final evolution of a Menos, so even a VL would never look human. That would only be possible, if that VL were to remove it's mask and become an Arrancar.

And my friend, any Captain that was able to best the 3rd most powerful Arrancar is most certainly not even close to the weakest Captain lol. Quite the contrary, infact. I really wish people would stop underestimating this kid. If anything, this battle should have dismissed any doubts about Toshirou's power. Even Kyoraku (arguably the most powerful Captain under Yamamoto, and along with Ukitake and Unohana) stated that because Hitsugaya is such a genius, that in only 100 years, he will likely surpass him. This means that in only 1 century (which is not long to Shinigami) Toshiro may very well be 2nd only to Yamamoto. Look at it like this. Ichigo got his ass handed to him by Ulquiorra who was not even trying, and Ichigo was using the full extent of his powers (Bankai + Vizard). Ichigo stood absolutely no chance against the 4th Espada and was even killed. As usual, Ichigo's ass was saved by his Hollow, which did the winning for him.

Now Toshiro was able to stand on even ground with the Resurrection of an Espada much stronger than Ulquiorra, and even defeat her without sustaining almost any injury at all. The only reason Halibel did not die, was because Wondereiss (ugh, I hate him) broke the ice with his scream and interrupted the technique before it completed. Considering this, I don't see Ichigo being stronger than Hitsugaya at this point. Barragan was actually dominating 90% of the time, even after Hachi started fighting. Surviving Soifon's Bankai at point-blank range is a pretty impressive feat (which is hard to admit, because I despise Barragan lol). And Hachi is indeed a Shinigami, and probably on par with the Captain level. In essence, he was able to defeat the Segunda Espada on his own, for the most part. So fighting 2 captain level shinigami at once, and almost defeating them is definitely impressive.

I agree with you on them not being VL, but you seemed to be underestimating some of the Shinigami, so I just wanted to point some things out lol.

[RavenArchangel]

Well, you're actually incorrect on a number of things here. Adjuchas never look like humans. Ever. The only species of Hollow that remotely resemble humans, are the Arrancar. Even a Vasto Lorde is only the size of a human, but still looks hollow. It would still have a full mask, being that VL is just the final evolution of a Menos, so even a VL would never look human. That would only be possible, if that VL were to remove it's mask and become an Arrancar.

And my friend, any Captain that was able to best the 3rd most powerful Arrancar is most certainly not even close to the weakest Captain lol. Quite the contrary, infact. I really wish people would stop underestimating this kid. If anything, this battle should have dismissed any doubts about Toshirou's power. Even Kyoraku (arguably the most powerful Captain under Yamamoto, and along with Ukitake and Unohana) stated that because Hitsugaya is such a genius, that in only 100 years, he will likely surpass him. This means that in only 1 century (which is not long to Shinigami) Toshiro may very well be 2nd only to Yamamoto. Look at it like this. Ichigo got his ass handed to him by Ulquiorra who was not even trying, and Ichigo was using the full extent of his powers (Bankai + Vizard). Ichigo stood absolutely no chance against the 4th Espada and was even killed. As usual, Ichigo's ass was saved by his Hollow, which did the winning for him.

Now Toshiro was able to stand on even ground with the Resurrection of an Espada much stronger than Ulquiorra, and even defeat her without sustaining almost any injury at all. The only reason Halibel did not die, was because Wondereiss (ugh, I hate him) broke the ice with his scream and interrupted the technique before it completed. Considering this, I don't see Ichigo being stronger than Hitsugaya at this point. Barragan was actually dominating 90% of the time, even after Hachi started fighting. Surviving Soifon's Bankai at point-blank range is a pretty impressive feat (which is hard to admit, because I despise Barragan lol). And Hachi is indeed a Shinigami, and probably on par with the Captain level. In essence, he was able to defeat the Segunda Espada on his own, for the most part. So fighting 2 captain level shinigami at once, and almost defeating them is definitely impressive.

I agree with you on them not being VL, but you seemed to be underestimating some of the Shinigami, so I just wanted to point some things out lol.
Its been proven that Halibel isn't as good as Uliqiorra if you look at that he has anothe ressurection form. Surely if she had another she would've used it by now. Furthermore, are you saying that the Numeros were at captian level? notice the difference in strength between Grimmjow and his fraccion as Genesis himself pointed out. I also feel Toshiro was being underestimated. Notice how I pointed out it as a reason I felt she was what she was earlier lol Hachi is part of the Kido Corps, which clearly displayed no Shinigami powers whatsoever but arguably could be considered one so thats really more of a technicality when you think about it. Furthermore, I still emphasize that while yes, Barrigan is pretty strong, his strength level pails in comparison to the likes of Uliqorra or Starrk. (Notice they both have two rs? lolz) but I suppose what you state could make sense..so what you are saying is that Arrancar is somthing else entirely? I suppose that would make sense when you see the VL Example.

However how i figure it, an arracar can be an adjuhas or VL but either way it has its mask removed. Look at the level of an adjuhas and note they said they can possibly defeat a captain while meanwhile its been stated that a Vasto Lorde is easily able to beat the average captain. Do the other Arrancar seem that way? No. Starrk, Maybe Yammy and Uliquiorra do, but the others do not. Which is what Genesis was getting at, no offense but I need more proof bro. Hachi by the way, was a arugable Shinigami part of the Kido crops and it was revealed in essense the equvilant of a Lieutenant if you look up his history bro, which means he isn't captain level by any means. Not to mention its been proven that even a Gillian can be of Arrancar level if you take a look at Espada number 9 btw.

So in short:
Arrancar=
Adujas or Vastro Lorde that have removed their masks or in number 9's case..a very abnormal Gillian.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Well, you're actually incorrect on a number of things here. Adjuchas never look like humans. Ever. The only species of Hollow that remotely resemble humans, are the Arrancar. Even a Vasto Lorde is only the size of a human, but still looks hollow. It would still have a full mask, being that VL is just the final evolution of a Menos, so even a VL would never look human. That would only be possible, if that VL were to remove it's mask and become an Arrancar.

Yes, that is true and is something I overlooked.


And my friend, any Captain that was able to best the 3rd most powerful Arrancar is most certainly not even close to the weakest Captain lol. Quite the contrary, infact. I really wish people would stop underestimating this kid. If anything, this battle should have dismissed any doubts about Toshirou's power. Even Kyoraku (arguably the most powerful Captain under Yamamoto, and along with Ukitake and Unohana) stated that because Hitsugaya is such a genius, that in only 100 years, he will likely surpass him. This means that in only 1 century (which is not long to Shinigami) Toshiro may very well be 2nd only to Yamamoto. Look at it like this. Ichigo got his ass handed to him by Ulquiorra who was not even trying, and Ichigo was using the full extent of his powers (Bankai + Vizard). Ichigo stood absolutely no chance against the 4th Espada and was even killed. As usual, Ichigo's ass was saved by his Hollow, which did the winning for him.

That may be true about Ichigo losing to Ulquiorra and Toshiro beating Halibel but when you check the growth rate between when Ichigo fought Ulquiorra the first time and then he fought Grimmjow and then Ulquiorra again. He used all of his power(Bankai+Vaizard Mask)against Ulquiorra the first time and did no damage and was beat in a single hit. He faced Grimmjow, who in their previous fight busted up Ichigo pretty badly, and he was able to fight on even terms with Grimmjow. Then Ichigo goes on to face Ulquiorra and was able to stand up against him and even injure the same person who was unaffected by Ichigo at his strongest earlier on. True that Ulquiorra's release was beating him and was worthy of 4th Espada's level but not his 2nd release. His second release which was unknown by Aizen and the rest of the Arrancars was, theoretically, 1st Espada or higher level in power. My point is that Ichigo has made impressive progress and after facing Ulquiorra I believe that he is now able to fight with Starrk at close to his level so that is stronger then Toshiro. Also, Ichigo faced a form which was far more powerful then Halibel's Resurrection so Ichigo has been fighting an enemy who was stronger then Halibel all together. Also, Toshiro has progressed in skill but it was due to his own ability that he was able to fight Halibel like that. The whole fight was Halibel and Toshiro matching water and ice techniques which would only grow in power until one overpowered the other. Then Toshiro pulled out this attack which he had never used before and it took Halibel by suprise seeing as how she probably thought that since it was an ice technque that she could just counter it with water. Toshiro, in my opinion, had a handy capped battle. Ichigo was saved by his hollow yes but at this current moment he is definately stronger then Toshiro.


Now Toshiro was able to stand on even ground with the Resurrection of an Espada much stronger than Ulquiorra, and even defeat her without sustaining almost any injury at all. The only reason Halibel did not die, was because Wondereiss (ugh, I hate him) broke the ice with his scream and interrupted the technique before it completed. Considering this, I don't see Ichigo being stronger than Hitsugaya at this point.

Please refer to above response.

Barragan was actually dominating 90% of the time, even after Hachi started fighting. Surviving Soifon's Bankai at point-blank range is a pretty impressive feat (which is hard to admit, because I despise Barragan lol). And Hachi is indeed a Shinigami, and probably on par with the Captain level. In essence, he was able to defeat the Segunda Espada on his own, for the most part. So fighting 2 captain level shinigami at once, and almost defeating them is definitely impressive.

Yes, it is impressive. No comment really because i've been proven wrong here lol.


I agree with you on them not being VL, but you seemed to be underestimating some of the Shinigami, so I just wanted to point some things out lol.


My response is the bolded.

[Shaggy]

Before I begin, I will state that none of the Espada are Vasto Lords. None. They're powerful but they're not Vasto Lords. They're more like second choice for Aizen in my opinion. He couldn't find any VL so he decided to create his own group of arrancar to fight against Soul Society. So please stop saying that they're VL. More specific, quit saying that Stark and Ulquiorra are.

Well, you're actually incorrect on a number of things here. Adjuchas never look like humans. Ever. The only species of Hollow that remotely resemble humans, are the Arrancar. Even a Vasto Lorde is only the size of a human, but still looks hollow. It would still have a full mask, being that VL is just the final evolution of a Menos, so even a VL would never look human. That would only be possible, if that VL were to remove it's mask and become an Arrancar.

And my friend, any Captain that was able to best the 3rd most powerful Arrancar is most certainly not even close to the weakest Captain lol. Quite the contrary, infact. I really wish people would stop underestimating this kid. If anything, this battle should have dismissed any doubts about Toshirou's power. Even Kyoraku (arguably the most powerful Captain under Yamamoto, and along with Ukitake and Unohana) stated that because Hitsugaya is such a genius, that in only 100 years, he will likely surpass him. This means that in only 1 century (which is not long to Shinigami) Toshiro may very well be 2nd only to Yamamoto. Look at it like this. Ichigo got his ass handed to him by Ulquiorra who was not even trying, and Ichigo was using the full extent of his powers (Bankai + Vizard). Ichigo stood absolutely no chance against the 4th Espada and was even killed. As usual, Ichigo's ass was saved by his Hollow, which did the winning for him.

Now Toshiro was able to stand on even ground with the Resurrection of an Espada much stronger than Ulquiorra, and even defeat her without sustaining almost any injury at all. The only reason Halibel did not die, was because Wondereiss (ugh, I hate him) broke the ice with his scream and interrupted the technique before it completed. Considering this, I don't see Ichigo being stronger than Hitsugaya at this point. Barragan was actually dominating 90% of the time, even after Hachi started fighting. Surviving Soifon's Bankai at point-blank range is a pretty impressive feat (which is hard to admit, because I despise Barragan lol). And Hachi is indeed a Shinigami, and probably on par with the Captain level. In essence, he was able to defeat the Segunda Espada on his own, for the most part. So fighting 2 captain level shinigami at once, and almost defeating them is definitely impressive.

I agree with you on them not being VL, but you seemed to be underestimating some of the Shinigami, so I just wanted to point some things out lol.

I agree with you on that +rep.

Its been proven that Halibel isn't as good as Uliqiorra if you look at that he has anothe ressurection form. Surely if she had another she would've used it by now. Furthermore, are you saying that the Numeros were at captian level? notice the difference in strength between Grimmjow and his fraccion as Genesis himself pointed out. I also feel Toshiro was being underestimated. Notice how I pointed out it as a reason I felt she was what she was earlier lol Hachi is part of the Kido Corps, which clearly displayed no Shinigami powers whatsoever but arguably could be considered one so thats really more of a technicality when you think about it. Furthermore, I still emphasize that while yes, Barrigan is pretty strong, his strength level pails in comparison to the likes of Uliqorra or Starrk. (Notice they both have two rs? lolz) but I suppose what you state could make sense..so what you are saying is that Arrancar is somthing else entirely? I suppose that would make sense when you see the VL Example.

However how i figure it, an arracar can be an adjuhas or VL but either way it has its mask removed. Look at the level of an adjuhas and note they said they can possibly defeat a captain while meanwhile its been stated that a Vasto Lorde is easily able to beat the average captain. Do the other Arrancar seem that way? No. Starrk, Maybe Yammy and Uliquiorra do, but the others do not. Which is what Genesis was getting at, no offense but I need more proof bro. Hachi by the way, was a arugable Shinigami part of the Kido crops and it was revealed in essense the equvilant of a Lieutenant if you look up his history bro, which means he isn't captain level by any means. Not to mention its been proven that even a Gillian can be of Arrancar level if you take a look at Espada number 9 btw.

So in short:
Arrancar=
Adujas or Vastro Lorde that have removed their masks or in number 9's case..a very abnormal Gillian.

I don't see where it was proven that Ulquiorra is better than Halibel. Ulquiorra himself has stated that Halibel, Barragen and Stark were stronger than him. And this is possibly with knowledge of his own second release. Knowing himself that he had his segunda resureccion he admitted that Espada's 1-3 were stronger. If you want proof i can provide if you wish.

Barragen's strength doesn't pail in comparison to Ulquiorra. Barragen fought 2 Captain Level Shinigamis and a lieutenant, although the lieutenant do anything to hurt Barragen, nonetheless with just that he proves he is stronger. And refer to paragraph above where i point out that Ulquiorra admitted to Barragen being stronger.

I have nothing to say about arrancar and VL and how they're different because Zack has already said enough on that subject

[RavenArchangel]

Before I begin, I will state that none of the Espada are Vasto Lords. None. They're powerful but they're not Vasto Lords. They're more like second choice for Aizen in my opinion. He couldn't find any VL so he decided to create his own group of arrancar to fight against Soul Society. So please stop saying that they're VL. More specific, quit saying that Stark and Ulquiorra are.



I agree with you on that +rep.



I don't see where it was proven that Ulquiorra is better than Halibel. Ulquiorra himself has stated that Halibel, Barragen and Stark were stronger than him. And this is possibly with knowledge of his own second release. Knowing himself that he had his segunda resureccion he admitted that Espada's 1-3 were stronger. If you want proof i can provide if you wish.

Barragen's strength doesn't pail in comparison to Ulquiorra. Barragen fought 2 Captain Level Shinigamis and a lieutenant, although the lieutenant do anything to hurt Barragen, nonetheless with just that he proves he is stronger. And refer to paragraph above where i point out that Ulquiorra admitted to Barragen being stronger.

I have nothing to say about arrancar and VL and how they're different because Zack has already said enough on that subject
First off: thats two Lts and a captain that Barrigan is fighting.
Second: Ulquiorra admitting such? Pssh. Proove it. He is clearly stronger than number 2 Barrigan and 3 Hallbel and you can see it clear as day reading the manga, though its possible this might only be true with his second form. Meaning that Uilquiorra is weaker than them when in his first release form, and his second release form is what makes him a VL. Starrk is the strongest and very likely a VL, but that will have to be seen if it shows his second release form (if he has one which would make the most sense, though he'd have to've made it a secret.)

Starrk and Uliquiorra are NOT VL's you are saying? So are you saying that in fact, the only VL is that masked form of Ichigo that he took once? This IS a strong form, and likely a VL. HOWEVER, he was that ON TOP of the level Ichigo was, so it was a stronger VL beating one thats been weakened by battle. (As I said, its Ulquiorra's second form that makes him a VL) I mean yes, we explained that Menos can look human by removing their masks and that turns them into Arrancar, but then does that mean that in fact ALL of them are Adujas or lower and just have their masks removed? Do you realize how little sense that makes? The gap in power is just too vast between some of the Espada and the others. I mean look at Espada number 7. He's complete crap that is really in a sense manga filler who is made solely to lose to Byakua. Now look at Starrk and Uliquiora..somthing completely different in level. Plus you can't tell me Wonderweiss ISN'T.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

I don't see where it was proven that Ulquiorra is better than Halibel. Ulquiorra himself has stated that Halibel, Barragen and Stark were stronger than him. And this is possibly with knowledge of his own second release. Knowing himself that he had his segunda resureccion he admitted that Espada's 1-3 were stronger. If you want proof i can provide if you wish.



He admitted it during a time when even Grimmjow's resurrection was not yet seen. The reason he said that in my opinion was for story purposes only. Had Ulquiorra even said one thing about him being stronger then the other, top three Espada then it would have raised many questions and theories and possibly ruined the interesting story twist surrounding Ulquiorra. In truth, Ulquiorra is much stronger then them because I have yet another theory proving that he lied when he said that they were stronger then him. If i'm correct when I say this then Aizen's castle, Los Noches, everything inside is monitered and everything said and done is known by Aizen. If that's the case then when Ulquiorra said that, he was inside of the castle and Aizen knew exactly what was being said by him. Also, when Ulquiorra released his second form he was not inside of the castle but outside of it plus, Aizen wasn't even in Hueco Mundo at the time. That says that Ulquiorra was lying when he said that they were stronger then him for the sake of keeping secret the fact that he was stronger and had a second release.


I also have a theory on Grimmjow's return. We know that he's not dead and since he is an Arrancar he will be back because the Soul Reapers won't truly win unless each Espada has been defeated. I think that when Grimmjow comes back that one of two things will happen. One, he will come back with amazing power that is VL level and fight against Ichigo yet again or he will have a second release(which I also consider a VL to have)and still fight Ichigo. Two, this is unlikely, he will come back as a good guy and fight with Ichigo against Aizen. Knowing Grimmjow, he wouldn't normally do this, however, after his defeat at the hands of Ichigo when Nnoitra attacked, Ichigo saved him from being killed by Nnoitra. That was the last appearance of Grimmjow we have seen. In a sense, every Arrancar has some sort of honor in some way, Grimmjow may, at the very least if he doesn't join Ichigo, spare his life next time they meet.

[Chronosxs]

Such a fitting end to Barragan.

[Sato]

Before I begin, I would like to say this.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/319047856_dbf1ef3e92.jpg?v=0

Is this true? I'm dissapointed in the lot of you. It seems no matter how much it's argued, people believe that Ulquiorra was the strongest.

First off: thats two Lts and a captain that Barrigan is fighting.
Second: Ulquiorra admitting such? Pssh. Proove it. He is clearly stronger than number 2 Barrigan and 3 Hallbel and you can see it clear as day reading the manga, though its possible this might only be true with his second form. Meaning that Uilquiorra is weaker than them when in his first release form, and his second release form is what makes him a VL. Starrk is the strongest and very likely a VL, but that will have to be seen if it shows his second release form (if he has one which would make the most sense, though he'd have to've made it a secret.)

Starrk and Uliquiorra are NOT VL's you are saying? So are you saying that in fact, the only VL is that masked form of Ichigo that he took once? This IS a strong form, and likely a VL. HOWEVER, he was that ON TOP of the level Ichigo was, so it was a stronger VL beating one thats been weakened by battle. (As I said, its Ulquiorra's second form that makes him a VL) I mean yes, we explained that Menos can look human by removing their masks and that turns them into Arrancar, but then does that mean that in fact ALL of them are Adujas or lower and just have their masks removed? Do you realize how little sense that makes? The gap in power is just too vast between some of the Espada and the others. I mean look at Espada number 7. He's complete crap that is really in a sense manga filler who is made solely to lose to Byakua. Now look at Starrk and Uliquiora..somthing completely different in level. Plus you can't tell me Wonderweiss ISN'T.

Truthfully Sephiroth, I'm dissapointed in you.

Actually, with what we have seen, Hachi is at captain level. my reasoning for saying this? He uses Kido far better than that of the most powerful captains. We have not seen him use his Zanpakuto, so that can't be taken into consideration at this point.

Ulquiorra admitted to there being three others more powerful than him before Grimmjow came and revived Ichigo.

Here's the link:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/19/

As we know, Ulquiorra is not the type to say something that is not true, so that means that he took his second form into consideration when saying that.

Whether or not that he is a VL, I don't know. That's gonna have to be cleared up by Kubo. He was very animal-like in appearance in his Second form which leads me to believe that he's not a VL.

He admitted it during a time when even Grimmjow's resurrection was not yet seen. The reason he said that in my opinion was for story purposes only. Had Ulquiorra even said one thing about him being stronger then the other, top three Espada then it would have raised many questions and theories and possibly ruined the interesting story twist surrounding Ulquiorra. In truth, Ulquiorra is much stronger then them because I have yet another theory proving that he lied when he said that they were stronger then him. If i'm correct when I say this then Aizen's castle, Los Noches, everything inside is monitered and everything said and done is known by Aizen. If that's the case then when Ulquiorra said that, he was inside of the castle and Aizen knew exactly what was being said by him. Also, when Ulquiorra released his second form he was not inside of the castle but outside of it plus, Aizen wasn't even in Hueco Mundo at the time. That says that Ulquiorra was lying when he said that they were stronger then him for the sake of keeping secret the fact that he was stronger and had a second release.

Ulquiorra stating that there are three more that surpass him in power before Grimmjow's release form was shown means nothing. We all know that he wouldn't say that without taking his second form into consideration. Ulquiorra would also not lie. That would be far too out of character for him. Indeed, he very likely always went into his Second Form when he was out of Las Noches, but once again, that doesn't mean that he would lie about him being the fourth strongest Espada.

Let's see as to why the top three are better than Ulquiorra. Halibel in her released form could have killed Toshiro had Kubo not done fan service and trolled the fight.(Note that I'm a Hitsugaya fan) Barragan was able to move so fast while not in his released form that Soi Fon, who is arguably the second fastest Shinigami in the anime lost track of his movement. Ichigo was able to BARELY keep up with Ulquiorra's attack speed in his first release form. On top of that, Ulquiorra, not even in his second release form, wasn't even able to sever the arm of his opponent off with a swing of his arm, while Halibel was able to do that. From a long range at that.


That may be true about Ichigo losing to Ulquiorra and Toshiro beating Halibel but when you check the growth rate between when Ichigo fought Ulquiorra the first time and then he fought Grimmjow and then Ulquiorra again. He used all of his power(Bankai+Vaizard Mask)against Ulquiorra the first time and did no damage and was beat in a single hit. He faced Grimmjow, who in their previous fight busted up Ichigo pretty badly, and he was able to fight on even terms with Grimmjow. Then Ichigo goes on to face Ulquiorra and was able to stand up against him and even injure the same person who was unaffected by Ichigo at his strongest earlier on. True that Ulquiorra's release was beating him and was worthy of 4th Espada's level but not his 2nd release. His second release which was unknown by Aizen and the rest of the Arrancars was, theoretically, 1st Espada or higher level in power. My point is that Ichigo has made impressive progress and after facing Ulquiorra I believe that he is now able to fight with Starrk at close to his level so that is stronger then Toshiro. Also, Ichigo faced a form which was far more powerful then Halibel's Resurrection so Ichigo has been fighting an enemy who was stronger then Halibel all together. Also, Toshiro has progressed in skill but it was due to his own ability that he was able to fight Halibel like that. The whole fight was Halibel and Toshiro matching water and ice techniques which would only grow in power until one overpowered the other. Then Toshiro pulled out this attack which he had never used before and it took Halibel by suprise seeing as how she probably thought that since it was an ice technque that she could just counter it with water. Toshiro, in my opinion, had a handy capped battle. Ichigo was saved by his hollow yes but at this current moment he is definately stronger then Toshiro.

My response is the bolded.

Seriously? This power scaling, quite simply, is a FARCE. Please. Ichigo's Hollow is what defeated Ulquiorra. Like every other time since gaining his Shinigami powers, his Hollow is what saved his ass.

Fight against Renji: Hollow mask lessened some of the cutting of Zabimaru.
Fight against Kenpachi: Once again, his Hollow mask lessened the damage he took.
Fight against Byakuya: His hollow took over his body when he was about to lose, and did most of the damage that Byakuya took.

As we see, Toshiro was fighting with Halibel on even ground until he pulled out his UBER HACK attack. Ichigo able to fight on even terms with Stark? Seriously? His Hollow probably could, but seeing as his hollow powers aren't something he can tap into. At least, not at that level.

[RavenArchangel]

Before I begin, I would like to say this.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/319047856_dbf1ef3e92.jpg?v=0

Is this true? I'm dissapointed in the lot of you. It seems no matter how much it's argued, people believe that Ulquiorra was the strongest.

And yet most of this post, you have provided little to no proof as to why he ISN'T. Its not pure fanboyism at all, its just honest statistics.

Truthfully Sephiroth, I'm dissapointed in you.
Actually, with what we have seen, Hachi is at captain level. my reasoning for saying this? He uses Kido far better than that of the most powerful captains. We have not seen him use his Zanpakuto, so that can't be taken into consideration at this point.
Ulquiorra admitted to there being three others more powerful than him before Grimmjow came and revived Ichigo.

Here's the link:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/19/

As we know, Ulquiorra is not the type to say something that is not true, so that means that he took his second form into consideration when saying that.

Any proof besides his word? I see no proof, though I must admit he doesn't seem the dishonest type. And yet he mentioned that he believes not even Aizen knows his true strength.

Whether or not that he is a VL, I don't know. That's gonna have to be cleared up by Kubo. He was very animal-like in appearance in his Second form which leads me to believe that he's not a VL.


His appearance in his second release form is almost identical to the Vastro Lorde appearance. Look here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Vasto_Lorde.jpg

Ulquiorra stating that there are three more that surpass him in power before Grimmjow's release form was shown means nothing. We all know that he wouldn't say that without taking his second form into consideration. Ulquiorra would also not lie. That would be far too out of character for him. Indeed, he very likely always went into his Second Form when he was out of Las Noches, but once again, that doesn't mean that he would lie about him being the fourth strongest Espada.

Let's see as to why the top three are better than Ulquiorra. Halibel in her released form could have killed Toshiro had Kubo not done fan service and trolled the fight.(Note that I'm a Hitsugaya fan)

Excuse me? Trolled the fight? Any legitimacy you had is now gone. Toshiro beat her fair and square with a form of strength that was his fair and square. Its not trolling people just underestimate Toshiro alot. Like it or not, it happened in the manga, so you must keep that in consideration without bias.

Barragan was able to move so fast while not in his released form that Soi Fon, who is arguably the second fastest Shinigami in the anime. Ichigo was able to BARELY keep up with Ulquiorra's attack speed in his first release form. On top of that, Ulquiorra, not even in his second release form, wasn't even able to sever the arm of his opponent off with a swing of his arm, while Halibel was able to do that. From a long range at that.

I'm not sure how to answer this so I'll leave it to Genesis.

Seriously? This power scaling, quite simply, is a FARCE. Please. Ichigo's Hollow is what defeated Ulquiorra. Like every other time since gaining his Shinigami powers, his Hollow is what saved his ass.

Fight against Renji: Hollow mask lessened some of the cutting of Zabimaru.
Fight against Kenpachi: Once again, his Hollow mask lessened the damage he took.
Fight against Byakuya: His hollow took over his body when he was about to lose, and did most of the damage that Byakuya took.
He never denied that. However it was a comparison of his final hollow form to a VL, to Uliquiora's final form and what Starrk MIGHT be like (so we still of cours are unsure about him)

As we see, Toshiro was fighting with Halibel on even ground until he pulled out his UBER HACK attack. Ichigo able to fight on even terms with Stark? Seriously? His Hollow probably could, but seeing as his hollow powers aren't something he can tap into. At least, not at that level.

I believe thats what he meant, was his hollow form, not Ichigo in general dude.

Replies above, obviously.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Before I begin, I would like to say this.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/319047856_dbf1ef3e92.jpg?v=0

Is this true? I'm dissapointed in the lot of you. It seems no matter how much it's argued, people believe that Ulquiorra was the strongest.



Truthfully Sephiroth, I'm dissapointed in you.

Actually, with what we have seen, Hachi is at captain level. my reasoning for saying this? He uses Kido far better than that of the most powerful captains. We have not seen him use his Zanpakuto, so that can't be taken into consideration at this point.


Ulquiorra admitted to there being three others more powerful than him before Grimmjow came and revived Ichigo.

Here's the link:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/19/

As we know, Ulquiorra is not the type to say something that is not true, so that means that he took his second form into consideration when saying that.

Whether or not that he is a VL, I don't know. That's gonna have to be cleared up by Kubo. He was very animal-like in appearance in his Second form which leads me to believe that he's not a VL.

Ulquiorra might have taken it into consideration but that doesn't mean Kubo made him say it. Also, it was an interesting suprise twist for Ulquiorra to have the second release and if in fact he was a VL then it would greatly please the fans. He could've intentionally made Ulquiorra say that in order to draw away any theories about him for a big suprise later on when he fights Ichigo.

VL's are humanoids, a human shape that walks on two feet. If he seems animal like then it means nothing, his second release is a humanoid which is a VL.

Ulquiorra stating that there are three more that surpass him in power before Grimmjow's release form was shown means nothing. We all know that he wouldn't say that without taking his second form into consideration. Ulquiorra would also not lie. That would be far too out of character for him. Indeed, he very likely always went into his Second Form when he was out of Las Noches, but once again, that doesn't mean that he would lie about him being the fourth strongest Espada.


Let's see as to why the top three are better than Ulquiorra. Halibel in her released form could have killed Toshiro had Kubo not done fan service and trolled the fight.(Note that I'm a Hitsugaya fan) Barragan was able to move so fast while not in his released form that Soi Fon, who is arguably the second fastest Shinigami in the anime. Ichigo was able to BARELY keep up with Ulquiorra's attack speed in his first release form. On top of that, Ulquiorra, not even in his second release form, wasn't even able to sever the arm of his opponent off with a swing of his arm, while Halibel was able to do that. From a long range at that.

The fastest Soul Reaper captain as of right now I believe is Byakuya. Ulquiorra would be able to easily outrun Byakuya while unreleased. He would also be able to outrun Soi Fon. Ulquiorra would have been able to regenerate from the Death Breath as soon as he was hit by it and in fact with his abilities he wouldn't have even been affected by it. The same attack that Ulquiorra used to knock Ichigo out of his second hollow form which was strong enough about 3 times over to beat Ulquiorra he could have used against Barragan. Barragan would've been to arrogant and would underestimate Ulquiorra, this would cause him to get hit by Ulquiorra's attack using simple strategy and taking advantage of Barragan's faults. As you stated, Ichigo was barely able to keep up with Ulquiorra's attacks in his first released form while he was using his Vaizard mask. Toshiro was also somewhat able to keep up with Halibel's attacks but more so then Ichigo. Ichigo still got pwnd by Ulquiorra even though he was using his Vaizard mask against Ulquiorra's first release. Toshiro was basically just a little weaker the Halibel's released form but still able to combat her. Even though it was a fan service error which allowed Toshiro to fight Halibel the way he did, you have to admit that it takes some kind of skill in order to keep up with someone who is stronger then yourself. In Ulquiorra's second release form, he massacred Ichigo, literally. Halibel was defeated by Toshiro who was still far weaker then Ichigo's hollow form. The only reason why she remains is because of WonderWeiss' appearance. My point is that Ichigo, who is stronger then Toshiro when using his Vaizard mask for sure, was defeated by Ulquiorra's FIRST release where as Toshiro managed to DEFEAT Halibel's only release.

Seriously? This power scaling, quite simply, is a FARCE. Please. Ichigo's Hollow is what defeated Ulquiorra. Like every other time since gaining his Shinigami powers, his Hollow is what saved his ass.

Yes it is, please read my reply above to see why it will help prove my theory.


Fight against Renji: Hollow mask lessened some of the cutting of Zabimaru.
Fight against Kenpachi: Once again, his Hollow mask lessened the damage he took.
Fight against Byakuya: His hollow took over his body when he was about to lose, and did most of the damage that Byakuya took.

As we see, Toshiro was fighting with Halibel on even ground until he pulled out his UBER HACK attack. Ichigo able to fight on even terms with Stark? Seriously? His Hollow probably could, but seeing as his hollow powers aren't something he can tap into. At least, not at that level.

I simply stated that Ichigo's growth rate was great. He went from barely able to stand against Grimmjow to fighting on even terms with Ulquiorra in his unreleased form. That's major improvement and Ichigo only got the shit beat out of him when he fought Ichigo. It seems as if everytime Ichigo fights, he gains more power based on the damage he took from the previous fight. If he was to be killed then his power would grow greatly, even more so then it did in between Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. The growth rate in power would probably put him at the level of two, with his Vaizard mask which he can tap into at will would probably place him at one.
http://www.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5718/Overruled.jpg



My reply is the bold.

[Black .D.]

But that can't be because there doesn't exsist somthing in between Adujas and Vastro Lorde and its clearly shown Vastro Lordes looking more humanoid than the example for Adhujas here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow

Besides, how could Grimmjow NOT be a Vastro Lorde? He shows his Adujas form here:
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/File:Grimmjow_Adjuchas.png

As you can see, Aizen made them into Espada and he wants Vastro Lordes so how could he possibly not be one if that's all Aizen wants? Besides, as we can see, Grimmjow clearly had a lot of power, and Barragan's power was able to do what it did with his powers based on old age death..how can THAT be Adujas? Halibel clearly was fighting Toshiro, who imo is not an average captain. It lists that Vastro Lorde are stronger than the AVERAGE captain, but based on his age we can tell he's no average captain.
Grim said it himself that he was Adjuchas before he went Espada, he never went VL.

9 was a gillian to boot.

It is said that there are about as much VL's in ALL of Huceo Mundo as there are Captains in the Gotei 13, and Hitsugaya said it himself a VL Arrancar would vastly outpower a Captain.
And so far almost all the Espada have been taken out by Captains with seemingly minimal effort.

Your statement is flawed.
In a way it is the in between, it isn't VL but it isn't average Adhuchas. Exactly, and that's why I think that when an Adhuchas has his mask removed and becomes a VL and has it placed back on like a Vaizard then it becomes the ultimate hollow, just like Ichigo when he fought Ulquiorra.

Adjuchas do not remove their masks to becaome VL.
When ANY hollow removes it mask, it becomes an Arrancar(hollow/shinigami).
To become VL a hollow must eat other hollows to turn Gillian, then eat other Gillian to turn Adjuchas, and then eat other Adjuchas to turn VL.
Once VL they must feed on other VL's (assuming there are any) or magnitudes of other lower class hollows to maintain its form.

[RavenArchangel]

Grim said it himself that he was Adjuchas before he went Espada, he never went VL.

9 was a gillian to boot.

It is said that there are about as much VL's in ALL of Huceo Mundo as there are Captains in the Gotei 13, and Hitsugaya said it himself a VL Arrancar would vastly outpower a Captain.
And so far almost all the Espada have been taken out by Captains with seemingly minimal effort.

Your statement is flawed.


Adjuchas do not remove their masks to becaome VL.
When ANY hollow removes it mask, it becomes an Arrancar(hollow/shinigami).
To become VL a hollow must eat other hollows to turn Gillian, then eat other Gillian to turn Adjuchas, and then eat other Adjuchas to turn VL.
Once VL they must feed on other VL's (assuming there are any) or magnitudes of other lower class hollows to maintain its form.
I've already admitted my post was flawed. I wasn't even using all of my brain power on that one. About 50% actually, which is what I somtimes do because I get headaches from too much intellectual discussion..notice thats why I debate less often these days in discussion threads when I've seen plenty of good ones that Angeal has participated in. I was using about 80% of what I can on my reply to Zack though..so if you want to destroy that one feel free.

BTW: we already established that an Arrancar could be a Adujas or Gillian. If you were reading all the posts we posted you'd notice that.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Grim said it himself that he was Adjuchas before he went Espada, he never went VL.

9 was a gillian to boot.

It is said that there are about as much VL's in ALL of Huceo Mundo as there are Captains in the Gotei 13, and Hitsugaya said it himself a VL Arrancar would vastly outpower a Captain.
And so far almost all the Espada have been taken out by Captains with seemingly minimal effort.

Your statement is flawed.


Adjuchas do not remove their masks to becaome VL.
When ANY hollow removes it mask, it becomes an Arrancar(hollow/shinigami).
To become VL a hollow must eat other hollows to turn Gillian, then eat other Gillian to turn Adjuchas, and then eat other Adjuchas to turn VL.
Once VL they must feed on other VL's (assuming there are any) or magnitudes of other lower class hollows to maintain its form.

I apologize, I accidentally mixed up my words in that post. Basically what I meant to say was exactly what you put. When a VL or an Adhuchas removes it's mask to become a VL or Adhuchas level Arrancar and it was to return it's mask afterwards then it would probably become the ultimate form of hollow, the strongest. Think of it as an Arrancar who uses a Vaizards mask.

[RavenArchangel]

I apologize, I accidentally mixed up my words in that post. Basically what I meant to say was exactly what you put. When a VL or an Adhuchas removes it's mask to become a VL or Adhuchas level Arrancar and it was to return it's mask afterwards then it would probably become the ultimate form of hollow, the strongest. Think of it as an Arrancar who uses a Vaizards mask.
I'm begining to wonder if thats true however. Perhaps what Ichigo became was simply just a VL that hadn't become an Arrancar and was just a really strong one..just a thought of course.

[Sato]

Replies above, obviously.

Oy. From now on, can you reply outside of the quote box? It gets annoying having to scroll down the page just to read your reply's.(This is to all people who do this.)

The only part of the silhouette that is almost identical is his upper body and hair a little bit. The horns are shaped differently, he has wings, a tail, and his feet are shaped in an animalistic form. But, like I said. That's something that can only be clarified by Kubo himself.

Losing legitimacy by stating my opinion? Not near that much. As you can tell by what I put in parenthesis, I'm a Hitsugaya fan. You know that the response by the fanboys/fangirls overshadowed the happiness of his possible defeat. Plus, using an Ice Clone? Seriously? You're telling me that isn't trolling?

He said Ichigo would be able to fight on even terms with Stark. Not his Hollow, Ichigo himself. That's just too large of a jump for Ichigo to handle.

Now, since you said that I provided little to no evidence as to why he isn't the strongest, let me do that now. Stark in his unreleased form when using Sonido seemed to be teleporting. He was also far more perceptive than Ulquiorra. Not to mention the fact that he was still physically stronger than Ulquiorra was in his Unreleased form. This shown by the fact that he was fighting on even terms with 2 of the most powerful Captains in Soul Society and was able to do major damage to one of them when his attack finally hit. Barragan could easily get past one of the most fastest Shinigami in Seireitei. Halibel would have killed Hitsugaya with just a swing of her arm. Ulquiorra never showed any of those abilities.

[RavenArchangel]

Oy. From now on, can you reply outside of the quote box? It gets annoying having to scroll down the page just to read your reply's.(This is to all people who do this.)

The only part of the silhouette that is almost identical is his upper body and hair a little bit. The horns are shaped differently, he has wings, a tail, and his feet are shaped in an animalistic form. But, like I said. That's something that can only be clarified by Kubo himself.

Losing legitimacy by stating my opinion? Not near that much. As you can tell by what I put in parenthesis, I'm a Hitsugaya fan. You know that the response by the fanboys/fangirls overshadowed the happiness of his possible defeat. Plus, using an Ice Clone? Seriously? You're telling me that isn't trolling?

He said Ichigo would be able to fight on even terms with Stark. Not his Hollow, Ichigo himself. That's just too large of a jump for Ichigo to handle.

Now, since you said that I provided little to no evidence as to why he isn't the strongest, let me do that now. Stark in his unreleased form when using Sonido seemed to be teleporting. He was also far more perceptive than Ulquiorra. Not to mention the fact that he was still physically stronger than Ulquiorra was in his Unreleased form. This shown by the fact that he was fighting on even terms with 2 of the most powerful Captains in Soul Society and was able to do major damage to one of them when his attack finally hit. Barragan could easily get past one of the most fastest Shinigami in Seireitei. Halibel would have killed Hitsugaya with just a swing of her arm. Ulquiorra never showed any of those abilities.
How is Starrk more perceptive than Ulquiorra? What about also how is he phyiscally stronger? You say he is, and I'm not saying he is or isn't, but you're not giving enough solid examples dude. He WAS able to fight on even terms with them, but not at the same time, and in addition, whos to say what Ichigo's standing currently is compared to them? Got any way to compare? Barragan got past her, but what about Byakuga? And Ichigo is faster than him, however he look at his fight with Uliquora...just saying. Halibel's match with Toshiro seemed alot more even than you seem to be stating. They were throwing similiar attacks left and right..it seemed more that no one was clearly winning until later in the match, where she started to get the upper hand and he "trolled" to win. Ulquiorra never showed what abilities?

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Oy. From now on, can you reply outside of the quote box? It gets annoying having to scroll down the page just to read your reply's.

The only part of the silhouette that is almost identical is his upper body and hair a little bit. The horns are shaped differently, he has wings, a tail, and his feet are shaped in an animalistic form. But, like I said. That's something that can only be clarified by Kubo himself.

Losing legitimacy by stating my opinion? Not near that much. As you can tell by what I put in parenthesis, I'm a Hitsugaya fan. You know that the response by the fanboys/fangirls overshadowed the happiness of his possible defeat. Plus, using an Ice Clone? Seriously? You're telling me that isn't trolling?

He said Ichigo would be able to fight on even terms with Stark. Not his Hollow, Ichigo himself. That's just too large of a jump for Ichigo to handle.

Now, since you said that I provided little to no evidence as to why he isn't the strongest, let me do that now. Stark in his unreleased form when using Sonido seemed to be teleporting. He was also far more perceptive than Ulquiorra. Not to mention the fact that he was still physically stronger than Ulquiorra was in his Unreleased form. This shown by the fact that he was fighting on even terms with 2 of the most powerful Captains in Soul Society and was able to do major damage to one of them when his attack finally hit. Barragan could easily get past one of the most fastest Shinigami in Seireitei. Halibel would have killed Hitsugaya with just a swing of her arm. Ulquiorra never showed any of those abilities.

First off, I was refering to his hollow the whole time. Ichigo may be able to handle unreleased Starrk when using his Vaizard mask. So basically what you're saying is their physical strength was stronger then Ulquiorra's, he was faster then Ulquiorra, and he was more perceptive then Ulquiorra when they were both unreleased. This may be true but as stated in my previous post, Ulquiorra's release was stronger then Halibel's and Barragan's and I would say about even to Starrk's. Now, if there releases are about equal or even if Starrk's is stronger, Ulquiorra would still have his second release which increased his powers far beyond that, to that of a VL level Arrancar. As opposed to Halibel who was defeated by Toshiro, one of the weaker Captains.

[Demonic Heart]

wow. Only 2 pages. This site needs to step up on the bleach fans. I dont watch bleach but I gave this chapter a look at, a quick skimmy and couldn't understand half of whats going on but all I know is I like that guy who wore the crown and he was skeleton like. Some god or some shit. I should probably start reading bleach, or would that be a little late and pointless for any reason?

[RavenArchangel]

wow. Only 2 pages. This site needs to step up on the bleach fans. I dont watch bleach but I gave this chapter a look at, a quick skimmy and couldn't understand half of whats going on but all I know is I like that guy who wore the crown and he was skeleton like. Some god or some shit. I should probably start reading bleach, or would that be a little late and pointless for any reason?
I'd read a plot outline of the first 70 chapters (So all the way to the Soul Society Arc) and then read from chapter 70 onward and keep up with the manga from then on :). Believe me, its worth it. :cool:

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

wow. Only 2 pages. This site needs to step up on the bleach fans. I dont watch bleach but I gave this chapter a look at, a quick skimmy and couldn't understand half of whats going on but all I know is I like that guy who wore the crown and he was skeleton like. Some god or some shit. I should probably start reading bleach, or would that be a little late and pointless for any reason?

Start reading it because you are late but it's worth it.

[Black .D.]

I apologize, I accidentally mixed up my words in that post. Basically what I meant to say was exactly what you put. When a VL or an Adhuchas removes it's mask to become a VL or Adhuchas level Arrancar and it was to return it's mask afterwards then it would probably become the ultimate form of hollow, the strongest. Think of it as an Arrancar who uses a Vaizards mask.

Explain this in detail as I don't understand what you are trying to say one bit.

[Demonic Heart]

I'd read a plot outline of the first 70 chapters (So all the way to the Soul Society Arc) and then read from chapter 70 onward and keep up with the manga from then on :). Believe me, its worth it. :cool:

Start reading it because you are late but it's worth it.

My friend reads it and im wondering why he's so into it but i have had more then enough people tell me to read it so I guess its decided. Maybe now at 2 in the mornng wont be the best time to start Lol. At least this way I can see which of the 2 ( naruto or bleach ) is better. Which do you guys think.

Seph: I think you told me you preferred Bleach an one peace is your fav.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

My friend reads it and im wondering why he's so into it but i have had more then enough people tell me to read it so I guess its decided. Maybe now at 2 in the mornng wont be the best time to start Lol. At least this way I can see which of the 2 ( naruto or bleach ) is better. Which do you guys think.

Seph: I think you told me you preferred Bleach an one peace is your fav.

Well, Naruto is my favorite over the two mainly because it was the first of the two that I started reading. Bleach is extremely close, in fact if it weren't for that reason that I stated then I guess they'd be dead even.

[RavenArchangel]

My friend reads it and im wondering why he's so into it but i have had more then enough people tell me to read it so I guess its decided. Maybe now at 2 in the mornng wont be the best time to start Lol. At least this way I can see which of the 2 ( naruto or bleach ) is better. Which do you guys think.

Seph: I think you told me you preferred Bleach an one peace is your fav.
Yeah, definately read Bleach =p. Well its alot like Naruto in some ways, but very different at the same time lolz. Agreed, wait until you get more sleep. =p I like Naruto more than Bleach but its really close. I remember more Naruto info anyways though sense I've known it alot longer and One Piece is my favorite lol (Which Ironicly I've known even longer but was often behind cuz I usually until recently stuck with the 4kids stuff and the US Shonen Jump..which the old first few issues of is where I first saw Bleach, One Piece and Naruto, but I was sheltered at first so it was awhile before I read more of Naruto or Bleach..)

[Sato]

wow. Only 2 pages. This site needs to step up on the bleach fans. I dont watch bleach but I gave this chapter a look at, a quick skimmy and couldn't understand half of whats going on but all I know is I like that guy who wore the crown and he was skeleton like. Some god or some shit. I should probably start reading bleach, or would that be a little late and pointless for any reason?

Seriously. Don't read it. At least, not until you get to the Grimmjow fight(The one when him and Ichigo fight in Las Noches.) Thank me later. Oh yeah, skip the Bount Arc. It's just filler anyways.

First off, I was refering to his hollow the whole time. Ichigo may be able to handle unreleased Starrk when using his Vaizard mask. So basically what you're saying is their physical strength was stronger then Ulquiorra's, he was faster then Ulquiorra, and he was more perceptive then Ulquiorra when they were both unreleased. This may be true but as stated in my previous post, Ulquiorra's release was stronger then Halibel's and Barragan's and I would say about even to Starrk's. Now, if there releases are about equal or even if Starrk's is stronger, Ulquiorra would still have his second release which increased his powers far beyond that, to that of a VL level Arrancar. As opposed to Halibel who was defeated by Toshiro, one of the weaker Captains.

Toshiro one of the weaker captains? Once again, someone underestimates his abilities. He has the strongest Ice Based Zanpakuto. That means that he is no push over nor is he weak. But, that's a whole other debate, so let me not get into this. Plus, Zack Fair brushed up on that situation.

Ulquiorra would be able to beat Barragan in his Second Release? Seriously? He would get rotted away. As we've seen, when his insides get destroyed, he's screwed. Barragan would rot that away. And don't say that Ulquiorra would be too fast for him to be able to rot him.(Look at my reply to Sephiroth below.) Aside from that, he can slow Ulquiorra down easily. Ulquiorra holding his own with Halibel is more believable, but I still doubt that he would win that fight. We saw his most powerful attack which was Lanza Del Relampago while we have yet to see Harribel's most powerful attack. Which must be fairly large in it's own considering that Cascada was able to completely flood what was a couple of blocks in the Fake Karakura.

How is Starrk more perceptive than Ulquiorra? What about also how is he phyiscally stronger? You say he is, and I'm not saying he is or isn't, but you're not giving enough solid examples dude. He WAS able to fight on even terms with them, but not at the same time, and in addition, whos to say what Ichigo's standing currently is compared to them? Got any way to compare? Barragan got past her, but what about Byakuga? And Ichigo is faster than him, however he look at his fight with Uliquora...just saying. Halibel's match with Toshiro seemed alot more even than you seem to be stating. They were throwing similiar attacks left and right..it seemed more that no one was clearly winning until later in the match, where she started to get the upper hand and he "trolled" to win. Ulquiorra never showed what abilities?

Starrk is indeed more perceptive than Ulquiorra. All of the conclusions he made about Shunsui I highly doubt that Ulquiorra would be able to make. On top of that, he found out Ukitake's Shikai abilities with ease while it would have taken Ulquiorra far longer to do that. The physically stronger bit was a mistake. Byakuya is slower than a Yoruichi carrying Ichigo's limp body while Soifon was able to match Yoruichi's speed without anything or anyone holding her back. That shows the large difference in speed between Soifon and Byakuya. I never said that the fight wasn't even I was just saying that Kubo did UBER fan service in that fight when he shouldn't have. Of course harribels fight was far more even than that of Ichigo's and ulquiorra's. Hitsugaya's speed is equal to that of Shunsui who is capable of keeping up with Starrk, the fastest Arrancar.

So, as I said. Ulquiorra still hasn't shown speed even equal to that of Starrk, or his perceptiveness. Nor can he even really keep up with Barragan, and anything else I said.

[Black .D.]

Seriously. Don't read it. At least, not until you get to the Grimmjow fight(The one when him and Ichigo fight in Las Noches.) Thank me later. Oh yeah, skip the Bount Arc. It's just filler anyways.



Toshiro one of the weaker captains? Once again, someone underestimates his abilities. He has the strongest Ice Based Zanpakuto. That means that he is no push over nor is he weak. But, that's a whole other debate, so let me not get into this. Plus, Zack Fair brushed up on that situation.

Ulquiorra would be able to beat Barragan in his Second Release? Seriously? He would get rotted away. As we've seen, when his insides get destroyed, he's screwed. Barragan would rot that away. And don't say that Ulquiorra would be too fast for him to be able to rot him.(Look at my reply to Sephiroth below.) Aside from that, he can slow Ulquiorra down easily. Ulquiorra holding his own with Halibel is more believable, but I still doubt that he would win that fight. We saw his most powerful attack which was Lanza Del Relampago while we have yet to see Harribel's most powerful attack. Which must be fairly large in it's own considering that Cascada was able to completely flood what was a couple of blocks in the Fake Karakura.



Starrk is indeed more perceptive than Ulquiorra. All of the conclusions he made about Shunsui I highly doubt that Ulquiorra would be able to make. On top of that, he found out Ukitake's Shikai abilities with ease while it would have taken Ulquiorra far longer to do that. The physically stronger bit was a mistake. Byakuya is slower than a Yoruichi carrying Ichigo's limp body while Soifon was able to match Yoruichi's speed without anything or anyone holding her back. That shows the large difference in speed between Soifon and Byakuya. I never said that the fight wasn't even I was just saying that Kubo did UBER fan service in that fight when he shouldn't have. Of course harribels fight was far more even than that of Ichigo's and ulquiorra's. Hitsugaya's speed is equal to that of Shunsui who is capable of keeping up with Starrk, the fastest Arrancar.

So, as I said. Ulquiorra still hasn't shown speed even equal to that of Starrk, or his perceptiveness. Nor can he even really keep up with Barragan, and anything else I said.
I fail to see why you are trying to debate with the novices here Sato.

[Zack Fair]

Holy S**T lol. Excuse my language, but I didn't expect such a debate to spark. It's been some time since I've had to really debate anything on Bleach. Most of the people here seem to stay on the Naruto forums.

Ok, since there is way too much to quote from both sides of the debate, I'll just respond to everything all at once.

@Sephiroth, and Genesis.
My friends, I think you are both drastically overestimating Ulquiorra's abilities, while simultaneously underestimating everyone you are comparing him to. Ulquiorra is far from Stark's level of strength. Stark has shown that he is easily the most proficient user of Sonido of the Espada. He moved from well inside the dome of Las Noches, all the way to the battle field where Kenpachi and Nnoitra were fighting in an instant. Do you know how much distance that is? Then he grabbed Orihime and effortlessly used Sonido to escape Ichigo and Kenpachi and returned back to Las Noches just as quickly. This was all done in a matter of a few seconds.

Also, Ulquiorra himself has stated that there are 3 Espada that are each more powerful than him. What more irrefutable proof is required than the character himself blatantly stating that he is not the strongest, nor is he even near it? No one knows Ulquiorra's power better than ofcourse Ulquiorra. Part of the significance of him telling Ichigo that, was because Ulquiorra was the first Espada to be formally introduced into the story. He had displayed amazing feats before we got to see any of the other Espada battle at full strength. So at that point, all of the fans, even Ichigo himself believed Ulquiorra was the strongest. Ulquiorra basically just bursted everyone's bubble all at once by revealing his number lol. Ulquiorra, as he claims, is the only one who knows of his ability to use a 2nd release. So when he told this to Ichigo, he was clearly taking the pinnacle of his strength compared to the top 3 into consideration. I think the main issue here is that there is a confusion regarding the Vasto Lorde, and the power of Ulquiorra's 2nd release. We have to remember that there is alot of build up and anticipation about finally seeing a true VL. Since Toshiro 1st mentioned them, infact. I sincerely doubt that Kubo will have us see the very first true VL in the form of an Arrancar. VL are pure Hollow. I am quite certain that when we do see a VL, that it will be in it's purest form as a Menos, not Arrancar. Ulquiorra would not stand a chance against Barragan. Even with SOifon's speed, her attacks were instantly halted just before making contact, and the same would happen with Ulquiorra, regardless of their difference of speed. Stark is able to fight the 2 most powerful Captains in SS under Yamamoto simultaneously. That, in and of itself should show the difference between himself and Ulquiorra.

And take into consideration, how Aizen planned it. He purposely brought his 3 most powerful Espada along with him to Earth, and left Ulquiorra behind to watch the base. He took Stark, Barragan, and Halibel because they are his generals. He needed the most powerful members of his Espada to be present for the battle at Earth. Ulquiorra hasn't done anything to show that he could defeat any of the top 3 Espada.

Also, to set the record straight, Ichigo's Hollow form is not a VL. That isn't even possible. A Vasto Lorde is a Adjuchas class Menos that has devoured a tremendous amount of Hollows. As I recall, Ichigo's inner Hollow has never snacked on any Hollows lol. It is merely an evolved form of his Full Hollow Transformation. Look at the Hollow form that fights Ulquiorra, and the Hollow form that fights Zangetsu in the Filler. Their appearances are quite similar. It is simply a more powerful form of that, and that is all.

Even the almighty Kenpachi was nearly killed almost throughout his entire battle with only the 5th Espada. While Toshirou bested an Espada much more powerful than Nnoitra and did it without receiving an ounce of damage. Now unless you are going to try and convince me that even Nnoitra is stronger than Halibel, I think my statement adds further to just how powerful Hitsugaya truly is.

I fail to see why you are trying to debate with the novices here Sato.

These are far from "novices" my friend. And if you feel that they are "novices", instead of throwing out insults, you should instead spend you energy educating them or contributing to the debate in some form.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Holy S**T lol. Excuse my language, but I didn't expect such a debate to spark. It's been some time since I've had to really debate anything on Bleach. Most of the people here seem to stay on the Naruto forums.

Ok, since there is way too much to quote from both sides of the debate, I'll just respond to everything all at once.

@Sephiroth, and Genesis.
My friends, I think you are both drastically overestimating Ulquiorra's abilities, while simultaneously underestimating everyone you are comparing him to. Ulquiorra is far from Stark's level of strength. Stark has shown that he is easily the most proficient user of Sonido of the Espada. He moved from well inside the dome of Las Noches, all the way to the battle field where Kenpachi and Nnoitra were fighting in an instant. Do you know how much distance that is? Then he grabbed Orihime and effortlessly used Sonido to escape Ichigo and Kenpachi and returned back to Las Noches just as quickly. This was all done in a matter of a few seconds.

Also, Ulquiorra himself has stated that there are 3 Espada that are each more powerful than him. What more irrefutable proof is required than the character himself blatantly stating that he is not the strongest, nor is he even near it? No one knows Ulquiorra's power better than ofcourse Ulquiorra. Part of the significance of him telling Ichigo that, was because Ulquiorra was the first Espada to be formally introduced into the story. He had displayed amazing feats before we got to see any of the other Espada battle at full strength. So at that point, all of the fans, even Ichigo himself believed Ulquiorra was the strongest. Ulquiorra basically just bursted everyone's bubble all at once by revealing his number lol. Ulquiorra, as he claims, is the only one who knows of his ability to use a 2nd release. So when he told this to Ichigo, he was clearly taking the pinnacle of his strength compared to the top 3 into consideration. I think the main issue here is that there is a confusion regarding the Vasto Lorde, and the power of Ulquiorra's 2nd release. We have to remember that there is alot of build up and anticipation about finally seeing a true VL. Since Toshiro 1st mentioned them, infact. I sincerely doubt that Kubo will have us see the very first true VL in the form of an Arrancar. VL are pure Hollow. I am quite certain that when we do see a VL, that it will be in it's purest form as a Menos, not Arrancar. Ulquiorra would not stand a chance against Barragan. Even with SOifon's speed, her attacks were instantly halted just before making contact, and the same would happen with Ulquiorra, regardless of their difference of speed. Stark is able to fight the 2 most powerful Captains in SS under Yamamoto simultaneously. That, in and of itself should show the difference between himself and Ulquiorra.

And take into consideration, how Aizen planned it. He purposely brought his 3 most powerful Espada along with him to Earth, and left Ulquiorra behind to watch the base. He took Stark, Barragan, and Halibel because they are his generals. He needed the most powerful members of his Espada to be present for the battle at Earth. Ulquiorra hasn't done anything to show that he could defeat any of the top 3 Espada.

Also, to set the record straight, Ichigo's Hollow form is not a VL. That isn't even possible. A Vasto Lorde is a Adjuchas class Menos that has devoured a tremendous amount of Hollows. As I recall, Ichigo's inner Hollow has never snacked on any Hollows lol. It is merely an evolved form of his Full Hollow Transformation. Look at the Hollow form that fights Ulquiorra, and the Hollow form that fights Zangetsu in the Filler. Their appearances are quite similar. It is simply a more powerful form of that, and that is all.

Even the almighty Kenpachi was nearly killed almost throughout his entire battle with only the 5th Espada. While Toshirou bested an Espada much more powerful than Nnoitra and did it without receiving an ounce of damage. Now unless you are going to try and convince me that even Nnoitra is stronger than Halibel, I think my statement adds further to just how powerful Hitsugaya truly is.



These are far from "novices" my friend.

HOLY SHI- I can't counter this. I might haave been able to counter Sato if I wanted to but no ****ing way can I counter this. When Seph said you were smart he meant it, holy shit.

[RavenArchangel]

I agree with Zack. I'm not being indecisive or by any means saying its a simple admitting defeat, I honestly agree with what he's said. (Which sucks because when Genesis said on Phone that he admitted defeat I was hoping to debate against Zack with the post that beat him LOL) However there are somethings I'd like to state.

So in other words: the only VL we have seen is Ichigo's hollow form. A VL is no shape or form an Arrancar. Wonderweiss being VL is open to debate, as he's stated he wants to make his new Espada be VL, however I can't really say whether he is or not...but Arrancar is its own thing. Which isn't adujas or VL, its Arrancar, its own rank which is separate. That explains why Ichigo won. VL's don't remove their mask, they still have one. Ichigo's only a special case because he always is in this series..he's Ichigo man! He's a human Shinigami, Vizard, Hollow!

It makes sense though, the creator hasn't shown us one yet (other than a version of one being Ichigo). He's just a really strong one is all. However, I think in theory its possible (but not yet proven) that a VL could become an Arrancar, the question is: if a VL became an Arrancar (so aka mask removed), would he be weaker, or stronger?

[Zack Fair]

HOLY SHI- I can't counter this. I might haave been able to counter Sato if I wanted to but no ****ing way can I counter this. When Seph said you were smart he meant it, holy shit.

HAHAHAHAH!!!!! C'mon dude, don't give up. I think it's just alittle overwhelming, because I responded to almost a dozen of your's and Sephiroth's posts, so I had to put my entire response of all of that into just one post lol. I'm sure if I spread out my responses alittle, their wouldn't be any problem. And besides, don't quite now. Do you know ow long I've been waiting to have a great debate about Bleach? Everyone is always giving so much attention to Naruto, no one is ever willing to talk too much about poor lonely Bleach lol.

[RavenArchangel]

HAHAHAHAH!!!!! C'mon dude, don't give up. I think it's just alittle overwhelming, because I responded to almost a dozen of your's and Sephiroth's posts, so I had to put my entire response of all of that into just one post lol. I'm sure if I spread out my responses alittle, their wouldn't be any problem. And besides, don't quite now. Do you know ow long I've been waiting to have a great debate about Bleach? Everyone is always giving so much attention to Naruto, no one is ever willing to talk too much about poor lonely Bleach lol.
Reply to my post right before yours then =p :laugh:

[Black .D.]

Holy S**T lol. Excuse my language, but I didn't expect such a debate to spark. It's been some time since I've had to really debate anything on Bleach. Most of the people here seem to stay on the Naruto forums.

Ok, since there is way too much to quote from both sides of the debate, I'll just respond to everything all at once.

@Sephiroth, and Genesis.
My friends, I think you are both drastically overestimating Ulquiorra's abilities, while simultaneously underestimating everyone you are comparing him to. Ulquiorra is far from Stark's level of strength. Stark has shown that he is easily the most proficient user of Sonido of the Espada. He moved from well inside the dome of Las Noches, all the way to the battle field where Kenpachi and Nnoitra were fighting in an instant. Do you know how much distance that is? Then he grabbed Orihime and effortlessly used Sonido to escape Ichigo and Kenpachi and returned back to Las Noches just as quickly. This was all done in a matter of a few seconds.

Also, Ulquiorra himself has stated that there are 3 Espada that are each more powerful than him. What more irrefutable proof is required than the character himself blatantly stating that he is not the strongest, nor is he even near it? No one knows Ulquiorra's power better than ofcourse Ulquiorra. Part of the significance of him telling Ichigo that, was because Ulquiorra was the first Espada to be formally introduced into the story. He had displayed amazing feats before we got to see any of the other Espada battle at full strength. So at that point, all of the fans, even Ichigo himself believed Ulquiorra was the strongest. Ulquiorra basically just bursted everyone's bubble all at once by revealing his number lol. Ulquiorra, as he claims, is the only one who knows of his ability to use a 2nd release. So when he told this to Ichigo, he was clearly taking the pinnacle of his strength compared to the top 3 into consideration. I think the main issue here is that there is a confusion regarding the Vasto Lorde, and the power of Ulquiorra's 2nd release. We have to remember that there is alot of build up and anticipation about finally seeing a true VL. Since Toshiro 1st mentioned them, infact. I sincerely doubt that Kubo will have us see the very first true VL in the form of an Arrancar. VL are pure Hollow. I am quite certain that when we do see a VL, that it will be in it's purest form as a Menos, not Arrancar. Ulquiorra would not stand a chance against Barragan. Even with SOifon's speed, her attacks were instantly halted just before making contact, and the same would happen with Ulquiorra, regardless of their difference of speed. Stark is able to fight the 2 most powerful Captains in SS under Yamamoto simultaneously. That, in and of itself should show the difference between himself and Ulquiorra.

And take into consideration, how Aizen planned it. He purposely brought his 3 most powerful Espada along with him to Earth, and left Ulquiorra behind to watch the base. He took Stark, Barragan, and Halibel because they are his generals. He needed the most powerful members of his Espada to be present for the battle at Earth. Ulquiorra hasn't done anything to show that he could defeat any of the top 3 Espada.

Also, to set the record straight, Ichigo's Hollow form is not a VL. That isn't even possible. A Vasto Lorde is a Adjuchas class Menos that has devoured a tremendous amount of Hollows. As I recall, Ichigo's inner Hollow has never snacked on any Hollows lol. It is merely an evolved form of his Full Hollow Transformation. Look at the Hollow form that fights Ulquiorra, and the Hollow form that fights Zangetsu in the Filler. Their appearances are quite similar. It is simply a more powerful form of that, and that is all.

Even the almighty Kenpachi was nearly killed almost throughout his entire battle with only the 5th Espada. While Toshirou bested an Espada much more powerful than Nnoitra and did it without receiving an ounce of damage. Now unless you are going to try and convince me that even Nnoitra is stronger than Halibel, I think my statement adds further to just how powerful Hitsugaya truly is.



These are far from "novices" my friend. And if you feel that they are "novices", instead of throwing out insults, you should instead spend you energy educating them or contributing to the debate in some form.
There are only 2 pro's in this thread, one being you and the other being Sato.
That's all I was pointing out.

And Toshiro didn't best Halibel.
Harribel(that's the new name she's has now), is far better than Toshiro in hand to hand as she was over powering him in her unreleased form.
She also wasn't damaged or even fazed by Toshiro's most powerful attack.

But the fact he can't take on Harribel, should not indicate he is weak like you said. We have to remember, that Harribel as well as all other arrancar have 2x the reiatsu than that of an average hollow or shinigami. Toshiro is an elite yes, but Halibel has reiatsu of at least an adjuchas class menos if she wasn't an arrancar.
And Adjuchas just weaker than Captains in terms of power.
The fact she is an arrancar now, just adds to her power.
But, the reason why people specualte is because, he has never really killed an Espada before so they believe he is weak.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

HAHAHAHAH!!!!! C'mon dude, don't give up. I think it's just alittle overwhelming, because I responded to almost a dozen of your's and Sephiroth's posts, so I had to put my entire response of all of that into just one post lol. I'm sure if I spread out my responses alittle, their wouldn't be any problem. And besides, don't quite now. Do you know ow long I've been waiting to have a great debate about Bleach? Everyone is always giving so much attention to Naruto, no one is ever willing to talk too much about poor lonely Bleach lol.

Okay, I am new to debating but i'm getting the hang of it. I never liked to use my brain because I was to lazy, I am trying a bit now and I realized just how smart I am. I can go smarter so imma try.

[RavenArchangel]

There are only 2 pro's in this thread, one being you and the other being Sato.
That's all I was pointing out.

And Toshiro didn't best Halibel.
Harribel(that's the new name she's has now), is far better than Toshiro in hand to hand as she was over powering him in her unreleased form.
She also wasn't damaged or even fazed by Toshiro's most powerful attack.

But the fact he can't take on Harribel, should not indicate he is weak like you said. We have to remember, that Harribel as well as all other arrancar have 2x the reiatsu than that of an average hollow or shinigami. Toshiro is an elite yes, but Halibel has reiatsu of at least an adjuchas class menos if she wasn't an arrancar.
And Adjuchas just weaker than Captains in terms of power.
The fact she is an arrancar now, just adds to her power.
But, the reason why people specualte is because, he has never really killed an Espada before so they believe he is weak.
You can ask Angeal or Zack, I am a pro at this as well. Only two things are the problem.

1. I get a headache from debating at pro level even though I'm very able to do it. So I usually prefer not to.
2. I memorize alot less about Bleach than Naruto.

Perhaps you should keep you personal opinions of how you hate me out of the debates hmm?

[Zack Fair]

Okay, I am new to debating but i'm getting the hang of it. I never liked to use my brain because I was to lazy, I am trying a bit now and I realized just how smart I am. I can go smarter so imma try.

Superb! I await our next debate then, friend!

I agree with Zack. I'm not being indecisive or by any means saying its a simple admitting defeat, I honestly agree with what he's said. (Which sucks because when Genesis said on Phone that he admitted defeat I was hoping to debate against Zack with the post that beat him LOL) However there are somethings I'd like to state.

So in other words: the only VL we have seen is Ichigo's hollow form. A VL is no shape or form an Arrancar. Wonderweiss being VL is open to debate, as he's stated he wants to make his new Espada be VL, however I can't really say whether he is or not...but Arrancar is its own thing. Which isn't adujas or VL, its Arrancar, its own rank which is separate. That explains why Ichigo won. VL's don't remove their mask, they still have one. Ichigo's only a special case because he always is in this series..he's Ichigo man! He's a human Shinigami, Vizard, Hollow!

It makes sense though, the creator hasn't shown us one yet (other than a version of one being Ichigo). He's just a really strong one is all. However, I think in theory its possible (but not yet proven) that a VL could become an Arrancar, the question is: if a VL became an Arrancar (so aka mask removed), would he be weaker, or stronger?

Well technically the only VL we've "seen" is Ichigo's new Hollow form. But thats only in appearance. Ichigo's Hollow cannot be an actual VL. As far as appearance goes however, a real VL would probably resemble that form alittle. There are 3 classes of Menos. Gillian (Menos Grande), Adjuchas, and the most powerful, Vasto Lorde. The evolution of a Menos depends on the amount of Hollow that Menos consumes. A Menos is a combination a many hollow. In some cases, a Menos retains it's sanity thus starting it's evoloution. To remain in the Menos class, and retain it's independence, it must continuously devour other Hollow. A Gillian can turn into an Adjuchas by consuming other Gillians. An Adjuchas then becomes a Vasto Lorde by consuming an obscene amount of other Hollow. Ichigo's Hollow dwells within Ichigo's soul, and as such has never feasted upon any hollow souls whatsoever. Because of this, it is impossible for Ichigo's Hollow form to be VL, or even a Menos for that matter.

Now as far as Arrancar are concerned, they are still technically Menos. An Arrancar is merely a Menos class Hollow that has removed their mask and assumed a humanoid form and acquired Shinigami-like powers. It's essentially the antithesis to a Vizard (A Shinigami that dons a Hollow Mask and subsequently acquires Hollow powers). Vizards and Arrancar are basically hybrids of Hollow and Shinigami. A VL, like any Menos, can still remove their mask and become an Arrancar. But my point was that we have not seen any Arrancar versions of VL yet, and most likely when we do see a VL, it will be in it's purest form, so when can truly understand what a true VL looks like. Arrancar is not necessarily a "rank" per say. The strength of an Arrancar depends entirely on the power of the Hollow prior to becoming an Arrancar. The state of Arrancar is basically a more focused form of their power and improves their battle abilities by giving them a humanoid shape and a Zanpakuto to seal their true powers. So if a VL were to remove it's mask and become an Arrancar, it's power would probably increase. But again, any Menos (Gillian, Adjuchas, and Vasto Lorde) can become an Arrancar.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Superb! I await our next debate then, friend!

I will do my best. It's like I said, I am a very lazy person thus I do not want to use my brain often. After constant use, I pretty much shut down and i'm an actual dumbass who can't even remember the last thing I said. I can only go for so long before I need a good break.

Well technically the only VL we've "seen" is Ichigo's new Hollow form. But thats only in appearance. Ichigo's Hollow cannot be an actual VL. As far as appearance goes however, a real VL would probably resemble that form alittle. There are 3 classes of Menos. Gillian (Menos Grande), Adjuchas, and the most powerful, Vasto Lorde. The evolution of a Menos depends on the amount of Hollow that Menos consumes. A Menos is a combination a many hollow. In some cases, a Menos retains it's sanity thus starting it's evoloution. To remain in the Menos class, and retain it's independence, it must continuously devour other Hollow. A Gillian can turn into an Adjuchas by consuming other Gillians. An Adjuchas then becomes a Vasto Lorde by consuming an obscene amount of other Hollow. Ichigo's Hollow dwells within Ichigo's soul, and as such has never feasted upon any hollow souls whatsoever. Because of this, it is impossible for Ichigo's Hollow form to be VL, or even a Menos for that matter.

Agreed.

Now as far as Arrancar are concerned, they are still technically Menos. An Arrancar is merely a Menos class Hollow that has removed their mask and assumed a humanoid form and acquired Shinigami-like powers. It's essentially the antithesis to a Vizard (A Shinigami that dons a Hollow Mask and subsequently acquires Hollow powers). Vizards and Arrancar are basically hybrids of Hollow and Shinigami. A VL, like any Menos, can still remove their mask and become an Arrancar. But my point was that we have not seen any Arrancar versions of VL yet, and most likely when we do see a VL, it will be in it's purest form, so when can truly understand what a true VL looks like. Arrancar is not necessarily a "rank" per say. The strength of an Arrancar depends entirely on the power of the Hollow prior to becoming an Arrancar. The state of Arrancar is basically a more focused form of their power and improves their battle abilities by giving them a humanoid shape and a Zanpakuto to seal their true powers. So if a VL were to remove it's mask and become an Arrancar, it's power would probably increase. But again, any Menos (Gillian, Adjuchas, and Vasto Lorde) can become an Arrancar.

Agreed.

I know you want a good debate but I pretty much agree with everything you've just said.

[Black .D.]

You can ask Angeal or Zack, I am a pro at this as well. Only two things are the problem.

1. I get a headache from debating at pro level even though I'm very able to do it. So I usually prefer not to.
2. I memorize alot less about Bleach than Naruto.

Perhaps you should keep you personal opinions of how you hate me out of the debates hmm?

Idiot, where did I make a personal attack against you in a debate?
Oh shi-, I did it in this post.
And you shouldn't try to impress anyone with your posts trying to prove yourself, your debating skills should do that for you.

[Zack Fair]

I know you want a good debate but I pretty much agree with everything you've just said.

I will do my best. It's like I said, I am a very lazy person thus I do not want to use my brain often. After constant use, I pretty much shut down and i'm an actual dumbass who can't even remember the last thing I said. I can only go for so long before I need a good break.

lol, it's cool I'm glad you agree.

And lol yeah I'm not always in the mood for a good debate either. So lets make a deal. The next time we both get into a friendly debate, lets make sure we're at our best. Atleast at the start of it lol.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

lol, it's cool I'm glad you agree.

And lol yeah I'm not always in the mood for a good debate either. So lets make a deal. The next time we both get into a friendly debate, lets make sure we're at our best. Atleast at the start of it lol.

Okay, deal. For now though, i've used my brain to much in the past 24 hours and I need a break from debates and discussions.

[Zack Fair]

Okay, deal. For now though, i've used my brain to much in the past 24 hours and I need a break from debates and discussions.

lol okay, thats cool

[Sato]

HAHAHAHAH!!!!! C'mon dude, don't give up. I think it's just alittle overwhelming, because I responded to almost a dozen of your's and Sephiroth's posts, so I had to put my entire response of all of that into just one post lol. I'm sure if I spread out my responses alittle, their wouldn't be any problem. And besides, don't quite now. Do you know ow long I've been waiting to have a great debate about Bleach? Everyone is always giving so much attention to Naruto, no one is ever willing to talk too much about poor lonely Bleach lol.

I've been trying to spark debates in here for a while now, but the pages mainly only reach up to this page at best. Although, we can have a debate in Bleach if you would like.

I fail to see why you are trying to debate with the novices here Sato.

The main reason why I am debating now is because I always wanted this to happen in this section. That, and I was bored.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

I've been trying to spark debates in here for a while now, but the pages mainly only reach up to this page at best. Although, we can have a debate in Bleach if you would like.



The main reason why I am debating now is because I always wanted this to happen in this section. That, and I was bored.

Well, there's yet another person to debate with.

[Sato]

Well, there's yet another person to debate with.

Let's go then.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Let's go then.

I must warn you first though. I am a very lazy person who has disliked using his brain for nearly the whole time he was a member. I am still lazy but I will use my brain. However, being a lazy person, I dislike using my brain to much as it could cause headaches and afterwards once i'm done using my brain I will be tired, that usually results in me being a complete dumbass. I've used my brain a lot in the last 24 hours but i'm going to try.

[Sato]

I must warn you first though. I am a very lazy person who has disliked using his brain for nearly the whole time he was a member. I am still lazy but I will use my brain. However, being a lazy person, I dislike using my brain to much as it could cause headaches and afterwards once i'm done using my brain I will be tired, that usually results in me being a complete dumbass. I've used my brain a lot in the last 24 hours but i'm going to try.

...Your point being? We'll get you to stop being lazy about debates then. Aside from that, though. What do you want to debate on?

[Kurama]

I will join in if it is something good. <_<

[Sato]

I will join in if it is something good. <_<

Cool. Everyone here is game.

[Kurama]

I have nothing to start with....so want to start Sato? lol

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

...Your point being? We'll get you to stop being lazy about debates then. Aside from that, though. What do you want to debate on?

I've had enough of Ulquiorra for the day, let's debate on Grimmjow's return. I believe that there would be one of two outcomes.

The first outcome, Grimmjow would return and fight Ichigo. At this point, Grimmjow would get pwnd by Ichigo. I have a theory on that though, if Hollows were like Saiyans. When a Hollow or any form of Hollow takes a beating then their strength and spiritual pressure would increase a lot. One way to prove my theory would be to use Ichigo as an example. Ichigo has a Hollow inside of him so if he were to take a beating then his strength would grow each time and we've seen proof that he magically gets stronger in between his fights to prepare him for later fights. When he fought Grimmjow the third time he took a serious beating but still won the fight. He went from not being able to hurt Ulquiorra while he was at full power with his strongest attack and Ulquiorra was unreleased, to being able to fight on par, and even injure Ulquiorra in his unreleased state while he was using only his Bankai and not his Vaizard mask. He actually died in his fight against Ulquiorra so if this is true then he must be a hell of a lot more stronger. I think that this would be the same case for Grimmjow, except that since he is closer to being a Hollow, he would get a much larger boost. Look at Yammy, I believe that when he first appeared, he was 10th Espada level. He took a small beating from Yoru and Kisuke and suddenly he's 0 Espada. Grimmjow took way more damage then Yammy did with both times put together. He also took damage from both Ichigo and Shinji earlier on, I think that because he had lost his arm and some of his power that he didn't really gain a boost or it took longer for the power to settle in. But if my theory is correct then that could possibly make Grimmjow stronger then Starrk and Yammy. This would give Ichigo a worthy fight and force him to have to get a lot stronger.

The second outcome, this one is highly unlikely to happen but, he would join Ichigo. I think that after Ichigo beat him that when Nnoitra was going to kill and he was saved by Ichigo that something happened. All Espada in some way have a sense of honor, this would include Grimmjow. Also, it would make a bit of sense if Grimmjow were to go against Aizen if he was really as strong as I made him out to be in the above paragraph. He already dislikes Tosen, he seems to have a distaste for Aizen as well. I think that even if he didn't join Ichigo he would still go against Aizen. Or at the very least, he would spare Ichigo's life for saving him from Nnoitra, thus giving him a chance to get stronger after finding out just how strong Grimmjow has become. Because you know as well as I do that if Grimmjow was really that strong then he would find and kill Ichigo without hesitation.

[Sato]

I've had enough of Ulquiorra for the day, let's debate on Grimmjow's return. I believe that there would be one of two outcomes.

The first outcome, Grimmjow would return and fight Ichigo. At this point, Grimmjow would get pwnd by Ichigo. I have a theory on that though, if Hollows were like Saiyans. When a Hollow or any form of Hollow takes a beating then their strength and spiritual pressure would increase a lot. One way to prove my theory would be to use Ichigo as an example. Ichigo has a Hollow inside of him so if he were to take a beating then his strength would grow each time and we've seen proof that he magically gets stronger in between his fights to prepare him for later fights. When he fought Grimmjow the third time he took a serious beating but still won the fight. He went from not being able to hurt Ulquiorra while he was at full power with his strongest attack and Ulquiorra was unreleased, to being able to fight on par, and even injure Ulquiorra in his unreleased state while he was using only his Bankai and not his Vaizard mask. He actually died in his fight against Ulquiorra so if this is true then he must be a hell of a lot more stronger. I think that this would be the same case for Grimmjow, except that since he is closer to being a Hollow, he would get a much larger boost. Look at Yammy, I believe that when he first appeared, he was 10th Espada level. He took a small beating from Yoru and Kisuke and suddenly he's 0 Espada. Grimmjow took way more damage then Yammy did with both times put together. He also took damage from both Ichigo and Shinji earlier on, I think that because he had lost his arm and some of his power that he didn't really gain a boost or it took longer for the power to settle in. But if my theory is correct then that could possibly make Grimmjow stronger then Starrk and Yammy. This would give Ichigo a worthy fight and force him to have to get a lot stronger.

The second outcome, this one is highly unlikely to happen but, he would join Ichigo. I think that after Ichigo beat him that when Nnoitra was going to kill and he was saved by Ichigo that something happened. All Espada in some way have a sense of honor, this would include Grimmjow. Also, it would make a bit of sense if Grimmjow were to go against Aizen if he was really as strong as I made him out to be in the above paragraph. He already dislikes Tosen, he seems to have a distaste for Aizen as well. I think that even if he didn't join Ichigo he would still go against Aizen. Or at the very least, he would spare Ichigo's life for saving him from Nnoitra, thus giving him a chance to get stronger after finding out just how strong Grimmjow has become. Because you know as well as I do that if Grimmjow was really that strong then he would find and kill Ichigo without hesitation.

I must disagree with you on something. That being, that because Ichigo died, he's now a hell of a lot stronger. It seems you're taking DBZ into consideration, and how Ichigo levels up between fights. Dyeing and getting the sh*t beat out of you are two completely different things. Even when Goku died, his strength didn't increase. The only reason his strength increased in death was because he trained. Same thing with Ichigo. When he was basically near death and Urahara came and saved him, he got no true increase in strength. Granted, that was because his powers as a Shinigami at the time got taken away, but when he got them back, he was just as strong. He had to once again, train after gaining his new powers in order to become more powerful. See what I'm saying?

The second one, I just completely see as being impossible to happen. Grimmjow would take Ichigo's life. He saw Ichigo not killing him as being disrespectful, and wanted to keep fighting. If anything, he'll spare Ichigo in anticipation for a fight since he saved him

[Mase Da Rula]

I think the raising of power level in battle is unique to Ichigo cause he rarely trains unless its for a big ass battle like these were...

when he is not in these battles he lives a reg life.... unlike other death gods.. who are always training and doing jobs and stuff

when we see them stronger.. its the direct result from training and working but with Ichigo.... he gets stronger as his resolve does.....

think back to his fight with kenpachi.... kenpaichi was owning him.. and rightly so cause his resolve was lacking.. when he worked the nerve up and strengthen it... he was able to pull out a win...

and thats like every ichigo battle since then.....

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

I must disagree with you on something. That being, that because Ichigo died, he's now a hell of a lot stronger. It seems you're taking DBZ into consideration, and how Ichigo levels up between fights. Dyeing and getting the sh*t beat out of you are two completely different things. Even when Goku died, his strength didn't increase. The only reason his strength increased in death was because he trained. Same thing with Ichigo. When he was basically near death and Urahara came and saved him, he got no true increase in strength. Granted, that was because his powers as a Shinigami at the time got taken away, but when he got them back, he was just as strong. He had to once again, train after gaining his new powers in order to become more powerful. See what I'm saying?

The second one, I just completely see as being impossible to happen. Grimmjow would take Ichigo's life. He saw Ichigo not killing him as being disrespectful, and wanted to keep fighting. If anything, he'll spare Ichigo in anticipation for a fight since he saved him
I can see what you mean, if this is true then it would mean that once Grimmjow returns, if he is as strong as i've made him out to be then Ichigo is in a shit ton of trouble.

[Sato]

I can see what you mean, if this is true then it would mean that once Grimmjow returns, if he is as strong as i've made him out to be then Ichigo is in a shit ton of trouble.

Well, not necessarily. Note that Ichigo himself also got the shit beat out of him by Noittra the same way Grimmjow did. And, before that, they were even. So, they'll very likely be on par just like last time.

[Kurama]

Actually Sato you forget that Vegeta became far more powerful after he died the same way Ichigo "died". Remember when Frieza put a hole through his heart?

[Sato]

Actually Sato you forget that Vegeta became far more powerful after he died the same way Ichigo "died". Remember when Frieza put a hole through his heart?

No he didn't. He still couldn't even fight on par with Freiza after that. the only treason why he got stronger after Planet Namek got destroyed was because of how constantly he trained on earth due to the gravitation room that Dr. Briefs made. Unless if I'm missing something, can you please link me, because I don't remember him being stronger after his death.

[Kurama]

No he didn't. He still couldn't even fight on par with Freiza after that. the only treason why he got stronger after Planet Namek got destroyed was because of how constantly he trained on earth due to the gravitation room that Dr. Briefs made. Unless if I'm missing something, can you please link me, because I don't remember him being stronger after his death.

EDIT! Wait he became more powerful after Krillin put a hole through his body. My bad... <_< Regardless it was the same wound that Ichigo had and it does not show that Ichigo literally dies.

[Samiale]

No he didn't. He still couldn't even fight on par with Freiza after that. the only treason why he got stronger after Planet Namek got destroyed was because of how constantly he trained on earth due to the gravitation room that Dr. Briefs made. Unless if I'm missing something, can you please link me, because I don't remember him being stronger after his death.

Sorry to but in, but it was actually stated that Saiyans increased in power from fights, and near death experiences.

[Sato]

Sorry to but in, but it was actually stated that Saiyans increased in power from fights, and near death experiences.

I know. Were you trying to prove me wrong or something? But, go ahead and but in. I don't care. Just adds more interest to the debate.

[sE pRoDiGy]

Also, to set the record straight, Ichigo's Hollow form is not a VL. That isn't even possible. A Vasto Lorde is a Adjuchas class Menos that has devoured a tremendous amount of Hollows. As I recall, Ichigo's inner Hollow has never snacked on any Hollows lol. It is merely an evolved form of his Full Hollow Transformation. Look at the Hollow form that fights Ulquiorra, and the Hollow form that fights Zangetsu in the Filler. Their appearances are quite similar. It is simply a more powerful form of that, and that is all.

Ahh I just woke up and decided 2 post in the bleach section for a change.:D
I dont have much to say seeing as i either agree with everything or someone else has allready posted a response...so anywayy even tho i agree with what Zach said it had me thinking about just why does ichigos hollow continue to get stronger if as stated above hes never snacked on any hollow...and i remembered that ichigos hollow self is also a part of Zangetsu and was wondering if by ichigo defeating/killing hollows or even crossing swords with espada is as close 2 "devouring" a hollow as he can get which in turn made him evolve...this coupled with little things here and there that others have noticed like ichigos mask gaining more colour or grimmjaw and ulquiorra having mentioned that ichigo grew much stronger in the little time he spent in Huceo Mendo (further controll over his hollow powers and being able 2 see ulquiorras attacks better) which we can all tell just by looking...i guess im really just looking for answered instead of contributing somthing. :o lol

off topic: Ha sato had been waiting forever for some bleach conversations. :laugh:

o_0 holly crap thats shuhan? thought you disappeared lol

[tnaruto]

Actually, not all are Vasto Lorde. Aaraniero was openely stated to have been a Gillian. Szayel, Zomari, Grimmjow, Nnoitra, Halibel, and Barragan i'm for sure aren't. Zomari got whooped by Byakuya, Szayel wasn't strong enough over all. Grimmjow was weaker then Nnoitra and almost all of the others listed, Nnoitra got defeated by the third weakest captain Kenpachi. Halibel was beat by Toshiro and yes she lived, she wouldn't have been hurt like that if she was Vasto Lorde. From the recent chapter it would seem as though Barragan was beat by two fat guys and a one armed b*tch.
i just gona argue with u by classing kenpachi as the third weakest captain, out of all the remaining Soul S captians kenpachi would atleast rank third in my opinion,only genruyi and shunsui would top kenpachi after seeing all the captians fight

[Sato]

Ahh I just woke up and decided 2 post in the bleach section for a change.:D
I dont have much to say seeing as i either agree with everything or someone else has allready posted a response...so anywayy even tho i agree with what Zach said it had me thinking about just why does ichigos hollow continue to get stronger if as stated above hes never snacked on any hollow...and i remembered that ichigos hollow self is also a part of Zangetsu and was wondering if by ichigo defeating/killing hollows or even crossing swords with espada is as close 2 "devouring" a hollow as he can get which in turn made him evolve...this coupled with little things here and there that others have noticed like ichigos mask gaining more colour or grimmjaw and ulquiorra having mentioned that ichigo grew much stronger in the little time he spent in Huceo Mendo (further controll over his hollow powers and being able 2 see ulquiorras attacks better) which we can all tell just by looking...i guess im really just looking for answered instead of contributing somthing. :o lol

off topic: Ha sato had been waiting forever for some bleach conversations. :laugh:

o_0 holly crap thats shuhan? thought you disappeared lol

Dude. Where have you been? It's been a long time. And yeah, Zack fair is Shuhan

[sE pRoDiGy]

i just gona argue with u by classing kenpachi as the third weakest captain, out of all the remaining Soul S captians kenpachi would atleast rank third in my opinion,only genruyi and shunsui would top kenpachi after seeing all the captians fight

Your insane to think that kenpachi is third strongest of all the captains. Why would yammamoto send his 3rd strongest captain to hueco mendo when he knows hes about to fight against aizens forces? Dont you think he will have his best men there 2 stop aizen? Thats why ukitake and shunsui are there..

Lets get back 2 Zaraki...even tho hes a beast (and my favorite character) he has way to many short comings....like not knowing any kido or flash steps and having no tallent at sensing his opponents. Putting that into consideration almost every captain can win against him simply because of what he CANT do..soi fon and byakuya can win using speed and kido -_- AND THEY ARENT EVEN THE TOP 3 strongest caps...ehh nuff said.

Sato: just been chillin lol

[Zack Fair]

Ahh I just woke up and decided 2 post in the bleach section for a change.:D
I dont have much to say seeing as i either agree with everything or someone else has allready posted a response...so anywayy even tho i agree with what Zach said it had me thinking about just why does ichigos hollow continue to get stronger if as stated above hes never snacked on any hollow...and i remembered that ichigos hollow self is also a part of Zangetsu and was wondering if by ichigo defeating/killing hollows or even crossing swords with espada is as close 2 "devouring" a hollow as he can get which in turn made him evolve...this coupled with little things here and there that others have noticed like ichigos mask gaining more colour or grimmjaw and ulquiorra having mentioned that ichigo grew much stronger in the little time he spent in Huceo Mendo (further controll over his hollow powers and being able 2 see ulquiorras attacks better) which we can all tell just by looking...i guess im really just looking for answered instead of contributing somthing. :o lol

off topic: Ha sato had been waiting forever for some bleach conversations. :laugh:

o_0 holly crap thats shuhan? thought you disappeared lol

Hey dude, whats up. Nah, I didn't disappear, just changed my user name lol. I've been good, just been chillin like you.

Anyways, I'm so glad you said this. Great minds think alike. The reason I say that, is because I made a theory thread awhile ago, about exactly what you just explained. About Zangetsu actually "devouring" hollows every time the sword slays or even injures one. But I don't think it's devouring the bodies, per say. I think Zangetsu is just consuming the Reiatsu of the hollow. Think about the whole premise of Getsuga Tenshou. It eats Ichigo's Reiatsu and expels it in a large blast of pure reiatsu. Now if Zangetsu has the ability to absorb it's wielder's energy, whats to say that it can't absorb reiatsu from other beings? As you said, Ichigo's inner Hollow is a part of Zangetsu. So if this is true, then every time Zangetsu kills a Hollow, especially when his Hollow is in control, Ichigo's inner hollow advances in power. So considering that this theory is even remotely true, I suppose it is possible that his inner Hollow actually is a real Vasto Lorde.

Side-Note: Dude, I had no idea you were a Bleach fan. Sato and I have been waiting for some of the intellects to come here for ages lol. Since a few days ago, a few of the other intellects have been showing up, so hopefully it doesn't slow down. Sato'll tell you, it's rare for almost any Bleach thread to get up to 5 pages on this site.

[ryuzaki]

Barragan is finally dead!! the old fart gone forever, that was cool how hachi killed him, reversing his own powers against himself. The next chapter is gonna start up either lisa yadomaru, toshiro, and hiyori sarugaki vs. harribel, love aikawa and rose vs. stark, or shuhei and komamura vs. kaname tosen.

WHERE IS RENJI,RUKIA, AND CHAD, THEY'RE SUPPOSE TO BE FIGHTING YAMMY!!!!!!!!

[sE pRoDiGy]

Hey dude, whats up. Nah, I didn't disappear, just changed my user name lol. I've been good, just been chillin like you.

Anyways, I'm so glad you said this. Great minds think alike. The reason I say that, is because I made a theory thread awhile ago, about exactly what you just explained. About Zangetsu actually "devouring" hollows every time the sword slays or even injures one. But I don't think it's devouring the bodies, per say. I think Zangetsu is just consuming the Reiatsu of the hollow. Think about the whole premise of Getsuga Tenshou. It eats Ichigo's Reiatsu and expels it in a large blast of pure reiatsu. Now if Zangetsu has the ability to absorb it's wielder's energy, whats to say that it can't absorb reiatsu from other beings? As you said, Ichigo's inner Hollow is a part of Zangetsu. So if this is true, then every time Zangetsu kills a Hollow, especially when his Hollow is in control, Ichigo's inner hollow advances in power. So considering that this theory is even remotely true, I suppose it is possible that his inner Hollow actually is a real Vasto Lorde.

Side-Note: Dude, I had no idea you were a Bleach fan. Sato and I have been waiting for some of the intellects to come here for ages lol. Since a few days ago, a few of the other intellects have been showing up, so hopefully it doesn't slow down. Sato'll tell you, it's rare for almost any Bleach thread to get up to 5 pages on this site.

Yes my thoughts exactly...i dont kno what i can add to this. :D Very well put.

OF Topic: Yea man bleach is awesome. ^^ lol ill try and be more active in both sections since i usually just well....lurk lmao

[Shaggy]

Wow Zack you ruined a fun debate :cry: oh well. so what are we going to debate about now?

[Kurama]

Wow Zack you ruined a fun debate :cry: oh well. so what are we going to debate about now?Good question... It is Zack's fault so he has to start things off.

[reins23]

finnaly(hopfully) barragans dead and the fight can continue2 either halibel or stark

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

Barragan is finally dead!! the old fart gone forever, that was cool how hachi killed him, reversing his own powers against himself. The next chapter is gonna start up either lisa yadomaru, toshiro, and hiyori sarugaki vs. harribel, love aikawa and rose vs. stark, or shuhei and komamura vs. kaname tosen.

WHERE IS RENJI,RUKIA, AND CHAD, THEY'RE SUPPOSE TO BE FIGHTING YAMMY!!!!!!!!

Actually, it seems that the spoilers say that it's going to show a bit of Barragan's history since he's now gone, no real advance in the story.

[Zack Fair]

Yes my thoughts exactly...i dont kno what i can add to this. :D Very well put.

OF Topic: Yea man bleach is awesome. ^^ lol ill try and be more active in both sections since i usually just well....lurk lmao

lol, thanks dude.

And ok cool, it'll be good to get some more intellects in the Bleach discussions.

Wow Zack you ruined a fun debate :cry: oh well. so what are we going to debate about now?

Good question... It is Zack's fault so he has to start things off.

lol wait, what did i do? My bad :p Ok, so lets talk about......:confused:.........

AHA!!!.......lets talk about the possibility of the other Vizards having a similar hollow form that Ichigo's body assumed when he fought Ulquiorra. Technically, they should have that same stage, since they all have an inner Hollow just like Ichigo. So I guess we can discuss what those forms could possibly look like, their powers, and perhaps if the Vizards can control them (unlike Ichigo). And if they do, what would happen if they used those powers in the fight against Aizen, in addition to the Vizards' Bankai forms.

And to add to that, we can also discuss the possibility of Aizen, Tosen, and Gin having acquired Hollow powers. Or perhaps what their (Aizen and Gin, since we've already seen Tosen's) Bankais.

Just throwing some things our here, that might be interesting to discuss.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

lol, thanks dude.

And ok cool, it'll be good to get some more intellects in the Bleach discussions.





lol wait, what did i do? My bad :p Ok, so lets talk about......:confused:.........

AHA!!!.......lets talk about the possibility of the other Vizards having a similar hollow form that Ichigo's body assumed when he fought Ulquiorra. Technically, they should have that same stage, since they all have an inner Hollow just like Ichigo. So I guess we can discuss what those forms could possibly look like, their powers, and perhaps if the Vizards can control them (unlike Ichigo). And if they do, what would happen if they used those powers in the fight against Aizen, in addition to the Vizards' Bankai forms.

And to add to that, we can also discuss the possibility of Aizen, Tosen, and Gin having acquired Hollow powers. Or perhaps what their (Aizen and Gin, since we've already seen Tosen's) Bankais.

Just throwing some things our here, that might be interesting to discuss.

I have an idea about Gin's Bankai, I think it will be a much stronger version of his Shikai. I think it'll be something like multiple blades extending out of the origional blade and then more blades extending out of those. It would be a very powerful Bankai, worthy of someone such as Gin. Aizen's however, I believe that one will be the exact opposite of his Shikai, it's not impossible if you look at Tosen's, his Bankai is way different from his Shikai.

[neijiman]

why isn't anyone talkin about the fight between the fox head guy with sholder pads, the dark haired dude with the 69 tat, and the stevie wonder lookin soul reaper...lol

[Zack Fair]

why isn't anyone talkin about the fight between the fox head guy with sholder pads, the dark haired dude with the 69 tat, and the stevie wonder lookin soul reaper...lol

No offense, but it doesn't even sound like you'd be able to contribute much to the discussion, even if we did talk about that lol. I'm not calling you stupid or anything, but it just doesn't seem like you know much about the manga, if you don't even know the character's names lol.

I have an idea about Gin's Bankai, I think it will be a much stronger version of his Shikai. I think it'll be something like multiple blades extending out of the origional blade and then more blades extending out of those. It would be a very powerful Bankai, worthy of someone such as Gin. Aizen's however, I believe that one will be the exact opposite of his Shikai, it's not impossible if you look at Tosen's, his Bankai is way different from his Shikai.

Yeah it's hard to tell because many Bankai are completely different from the Shinigami's Shikai, as you said. But I basically agree with what you said about Gin's Bankai. If Aizen's Shikai is overkill to the greatest extent, then I shutter to think about what his Bankai is like lol. And for some reason, I think there is more to Tosen's Bankai than what was shown against Kenpachi. Kubo's gonna have to pull out something new to keep the fans interested in Tosen's Bankai. Even as many times as Hitsugaya has used his Bankai, he'd use a new attack, or does something to new. So I think Tosen might have a few new surprises in this fight.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

No offense, but it doesn't even sound like you'd be able to contribute much to the discussion, even if we did talk about that lol. I'm not calling you stupid or anything, but it just doesn't seem like you know much about the manga, if you don't even know the character's names lol.



Yeah it's hard to tell because many Bankai are completely different from the Shinigami's Shikai, as you said. But I basically agree with what you said about Gin's Bankai. If Aizen's Shikai is overkill to the greatest extent, then I shutter to think about what his Bankai is like lol. And for some reason, I think there is more to Tosen's Bankai than what was shown against Kenpachi. Kubo's gonna have to pull out something new to keep the fans interested in Tosen's Bankai. Even as many times as Hitsugaya has used his Bankai, he'd use a new attack, or does something to new. So I think Tosen might have a few new surprises in this fight.

Exactly, Tosen's most likely going to have another attack, probably two or three new attacks. Toshiro's Bankai is still a little underdeveloped so he probably has another attack waiting to be learned, however, Tosen's Bankai could, more or less, be mastered already. I think that he still has a few attacks that weren't shown when he fought Kenpachi. Also, I think there may be an interesting plot twist. Aizen, Gin, and Tosen may all have Vaizard masks, after all, it was Aizen who origionally gave the masks to the Vaizards, who's to say that the three of them don't have masks. It would definately make their fights with the Vaizards more interesting, after all, even though Aizen has mastered every type of combat a Soul Reaper has, I think that if he faced another captain level Soul Reaper who has also mastered every type of combat and has a Vaizard mask, he wouldn't be able to win. I think that Shinji may be at his level, it would be interesting still to see what would happen if Aizen and the others had Vaizard masks.

[huey]

i think aizen has another trick behind his bankai

[Obito is dead]

Ehhh ok chapter this week I want to know whats happing to ichigo aswell thou.?

[neijiman]

No offense, but it doesn't even sound like you'd be able to contribute much to the discussion, even if we did talk about that lol. I'm not calling you stupid or anything, but it just doesn't seem like you know much about the manga, if you don't even know the character's names lol.



Yeah it's hard to tell because many Bankai are completely different from the Shinigami's Shikai, as you said. But I basically agree with what you said about Gin's Bankai. If Aizen's Shikai is overkill to the greatest extent, then I shutter to think about what his Bankai is like lol. And for some reason, I think there is more to Tosen's Bankai than what was shown against Kenpachi. Kubo's gonna have to pull out something new to keep the fans interested in Tosen's Bankai. Even as many times as Hitsugaya has used his Bankai, he'd use a new attack, or does something to new. So I think Tosen might have a few new surprises in this fight.

lol, its's called a joke man. i know who the characters are and their back rounds. not to mention i've stayed current with the bleach manga for quite some time now. I jus felt like lightening the mood. it's crazy how you assumed that much about me jus from a 2 sentence light hearted rib.

anyways while ignoring you incredibly presumptuous statement. i'm glad that i was able to kick start another convo

[Sato]

lol wait, what did i do? My bad :p Ok, so lets talk about......:confused:.........

AHA!!!.......lets talk about the possibility of the other Vizards having a similar hollow form that Ichigo's body assumed when he fought Ulquiorra. Technically, they should have that same stage, since they all have an inner Hollow just like Ichigo. So I guess we can discuss what those forms could possibly look like, their powers, and perhaps if the Vizards can control them (unlike Ichigo). And if they do, what would happen if they used those powers in the fight against Aizen, in addition to the Vizards' Bankai forms.

And to add to that, we can also discuss the possibility of Aizen, Tosen, and Gin having acquired Hollow powers. Or perhaps what their (Aizen and Gin, since we've already seen Tosen's) Bankais.

Just throwing some things our here, that might be interesting to discuss.

Well, I would assume that the other Visoreds have a form like that seeing as when Kensei was first shown, he had what you could call a Visored form that included body parts of a hollow.

I highly doubt that Tosen, Gin, and Aizen have gained Hollow powers. Why, you may ask? Quite simply because Aizen has yet to experiment Shinigamification on Vasto Lordes, which would be what is equal to them.(Aizen at least) And you never know. Maybe the process for turning them into arrancar is completely different.

[Zack Fair]

lol, its's called a joke man. i know who the characters are and their back rounds. not to mention i've stayed current with the bleach manga for quite some time now. I jus felt like lightening the mood. it's crazy how you assumed that much about me jus from a 2 sentence light hearted rib.

anyways while ignoring you incredibly presumptuous statement. i'm glad that i was able to kick start another convo

lol, dude re-read you comment. How could you possibly call my response "incredibly presumptuous"? Theres countless people on this thread that make statements exactly like yours, and are completely serious, so why would I think your statement was unique? I apologize, if my comment offended you, but c'mon honestly, was that really such an unreasonable response?

Well, I would assume that the other Visoreds have a form like that seeing as when Kensei was first shown, he had what you could call a Visored form that included body parts of a hollow.

I highly doubt that Tosen, Gin, and Aizen have gained Hollow powers. Why, you may ask? Quite simply because Aizen has yet to experiment Shinigamification on Vasto Lordes, which would be what is equal to them.(Aizen at least) And you never know. Maybe the process for turning them into arrancar is completely different.

Yeah, I guess it's safe to say that the Vizards all have Full Hollow forms like Ichigo's. But the question is, if they can control it. Also, if they are able to transform into that state at will.

And I agree with your second statement for the most part. But I think it would be an amazing plot twist, if the 3 of them actually did have Hollow powers. If you think about it, they kind of need that to tip the scales in their favor, or atleast even it out once again. Theres only Halibel, Stark and Wonderweiss (who's knocked out at the moment) left besides the 3 Captains. Then on the other side, theres all of the Vizards, Yamamoto, Komamura, Hitsugaya, Shunsui, and Ukitake (not sure about his condition though) that are still battle ready. Aizen and Co. are going to have to pull out something huge to reacquire the advantage.

Exactly, Tosen's most likely going to have another attack, probably two or three new attacks. Toshiro's Bankai is still a little underdeveloped so he probably has another attack waiting to be learned, however, Tosen's Bankai could, more or less, be mastered already. I think that he still has a few attacks that weren't shown when he fought Kenpachi. Also, I think there may be an interesting plot twist. Aizen, Gin, and Tosen may all have Vaizard masks, after all, it was Aizen who origionally gave the masks to the Vaizards, who's to say that the three of them don't have masks. It would definately make their fights with the Vaizards more interesting, after all, even though Aizen has mastered every type of combat a Soul Reaper has, I think that if he faced another captain level Soul Reaper who has also mastered every type of combat and has a Vaizard mask, he wouldn't be able to win. I think that Shinji may be at his level, it would be interesting still to see what would happen if Aizen and the others had Vaizard masks.

I have nothing to add to this. I agree completely.

[RavenArchangel]

So...did I miss much? -.-

(Oh and just as a random side note..I oddly enough miss being Sephiroth >.<)

[Tsuna]

ommfgwtf NOW DO TIA!!!

[neijiman]

lol, dude re-read you comment. How could you possibly call my response "incredibly presumptuous"? Theres countless people on this thread that make statements exactly like yours, and are completely serious, so why would I think your statement was unique? I apologize, if my comment offended you, but c'mon honestly, was that really such an unreasonable response?



Yeah, I guess it's safe to say that the Vizards all have Full Hollow forms like Ichigo's. But the question is, if they can control it. Also, if they are able to transform into that state at will.

And I agree with your second statement for the most part. But I think it would be an amazing plot twist, if the 3 of them actually did have Hollow powers. If you think about it, they kind of need that to tip the scales in their favor, or atleast even it out once again. Theres only Halibel, Stark and Wonderweiss (who's knocked out at the moment) left besides the 3 Captains. Then on the other side, theres all of the Vizards, Yamamoto, Komamura, Hitsugaya, Shunsui, and Ukitake (not sure about his condition though) that are still battle ready. Aizen and Co. are going to have to pull out something huge to reacquire the advantage.



I have nothing to add to this. I agree completely.

well i'm not those other posters. not to mention the fact that you didn't have to go out of your way to acknowledge my comment. you could have saved ur self the time and energy and jus ignored me

anyways i really want to know your stand point in the whole tousen fight. tousen is one of my favorite antagonists (mostly because he's the only standing black characters in bleach) so i want to know how you think he will fair against his former Lt. and his friend

[Zack Fair]

well i'm not those other posters. not to mention the fact that you didn't have to go out of your way to acknowledge my comment. you could have saved ur self the time and energy and jus ignored me

anyways i really want to know your stand point in the whole tousen fight. tousen is one of my favorite antagonists (mostly because he's the only standing black characters in bleach) so i want to know how you think he will fair against his former Lt. and his friend

I didn't really go out of my way, I was merely making an observation. Albeit, an inaccurate one, but I've already apologized for that lol.

Anyways, Genesis and I have been discussing Tosen for some time now. We believe that there is more to his Bankai than what he showed to Kenpachi. To be quite honest, I feel like Tosen was not fighting at his best when he fought Kenpachi. Instead of toying with him, he could have quickly killed Kenpachi before he figured out his Bankai. But even in terms of the Bankai itself, I think it might be capable of much more than just that. As Komamura observed, Hisagi is only going by force of will, so I don't think he'll provide too much help against Tosen. It will be interesting to see Komamura and Tosen fight to the death, because they were always seen doing the opposite. Fighting together. And to be honest, if Tosen traps Komamura in Enma Korogi, I think Komamura's Bankai will be far too big for it to contain. Their abilities are very different from one another, so it will be interesting to see how they counter each other's powers.

But as far as the dark skinned characters, I'd have to say that I prefer Yoruichi to Tosen. She is actually my favorite Shinigami, besides Byakuya, Urahara, and Toushiro. Though Tosen has one of my favorite Shikai, I like Yoruichi's way of fighting and her overall character. Though I've always wondered what her Shikai and Bankai look like, and why she never uses her Zanpakuto. The only time she's even been seen using a Zanpakuto at all, was in the flashback of her and Soifon. If shes that dangerous completely unarmed, I can't imagine how powerful she is with her Shikai, least of all Bankai.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

I didn't really go out of my way, I was merely making an observation. Albeit, an inaccurate one, but I've already apologized for that lol.

Anyways, Genesis and I have been discussing Tosen for some time now. We believe that there is more to his Bankai than what he showed to Kenpachi. To be quite honest, I feel like Tosen was not fighting at his best when he fought Kenpachi. Instead of toying with him, he could have quickly killed Kenpachi before he figured out his Bankai. But even in terms of the Bankai itself, I think it might be capable of much more than just that. As Komamura observed, Hisagi is only going by force of will, so I don't think he'll provide too much help against Tosen. It will be interesting to see Komamura and Tosen fight to the death, because they were always seen doing the opposite. Fighting together. And to be honest, if Tosen traps Komamura in Enma Korogi, I think Komamura's Bankai will be far too big for it to contain. Their abilities are very different from one another, so it will be interesting to see how they counter each other's powers.

But as far as the dark skinned characters, I'd have to say that I prefer Yoruichi to Tosen. She is actually my favorite Shinigami, besides Byakuya, Urahara, and Toushiro. Though Tosen has one of my favorite Shikai, I like Yoruichi's way of fighting and her overall character. Though I've always wondered what her Shikai and Bankai look like, and why she never uses her Zanpakuto. The only time she's even been seen using a Zanpakuto at all, was in the flashback of her and Soifon. If shes that dangerous completely unarmed, I can't imagine how powerful she is with her Shikai, least of all Bankai.

I like Tosen and Yoruichi, Tosen is a cool character but the reason he joined Aizen is stupid, Yoruichi is hawt. Nuff said :P

[neijiman]

I didn't really go out of my way, I was merely making an observation. Albeit, an inaccurate one, but I've already apologized for that lol.

Anyways, Genesis and I have been discussing Tosen for some time now. We believe that there is more to his Bankai than what he showed to Kenpachi. To be quite honest, I feel like Tosen was not fighting at his best when he fought Kenpachi. Instead of toying with him, he could have quickly killed Kenpachi before he figured out his Bankai. But even in terms of the Bankai itself, I think it might be capable of much more than just that. As Komamura observed, Hisagi is only going by force of will, so I don't think he'll provide too much help against Tosen. It will be interesting to see Komamura and Tosen fight to the death, because they were always seen doing the opposite. Fighting together. And to be honest, if Tosen traps Komamura in Enma Korogi, I think Komamura's Bankai will be far too big for it to contain. Their abilities are very different from one another, so it will be interesting to see how they counter each other's powers.

But as far as the dark skinned characters, I'd have to say that I prefer Yoruichi to Tosen. She is actually my favorite Shinigami, besides Byakuya, Urahara, and Toushiro. Though Tosen has one of my favorite Shikai, I like Yoruichi's way of fighting and her overall character. Though I've always wondered what her Shikai and Bankai look like, and why she never uses her Zanpakuto. The only time she's even been seen using a Zanpakuto at all, was in the flashback of her and Soifon. If shes that dangerous completely unarmed, I can't imagine how powerful she is with her Shikai, least of all Bankai.

i think your right about Komamura's bankai being to much for tousen to contain. i once heard something about tousen's blade having 2 releases so assuming that what i heard was true he may reveal a second bankai in this fight

just a side note but has Komamura ever shown his shikai....?

yoruichi is dark skinned but i wouldn't call her black in terms of bein of african descent. i will admit though that i like her style of hand to hand fighting

[RavenArchangel]

there is no way in hell that I'm going to read everything I missed..at least not right now..-.-

[Zack Fair]

there is no way in hell that I'm going to read everything I missed..at least not right now..-.-

lol I don't blame you dude. Now you know how I felt :D

I like Tosen and Yoruichi, Tosen is a cool character but the reason he joined Aizen is stupid, Yoruichi is hawt. Nuff said :P

Yeah their both pretty awesome by their own rights.

i think your right about Komamura's bankai being to much for tousen to contain. i once heard something about tousen's blade having 2 releases so assuming that what i heard was true he may reveal a second bankai in this fight

just a side note but has Komamura ever shown his shikai....?

yoruichi is dark skinned but i wouldn't call her black in terms of bein of african descent. i will admit though that i like her style of hand to hand fighting

Yeah, Komamura showed his Shikai before. All it basically does is summon small parts of his giant Bankai. So if he uses Shikai, and swings his sword, a giant sword will also swing in the same way. Remember he tried to punch Aizen with that gaint fist? That was his Shikai.

And yeah Tosen's Zanpakuto has 2 Shikai commands. The first one "Cry" makes a sound wave that renders the victim unconscious, but it doesn't actually hurt them. Tosen used that to knock out Ishida right after his battle with Mayuri. The other Shikai command "Smash his Limbs" turns the sword into dozens of blades that fly towards the enemy. He used it against Kenpachi. And you have a good point. If his Shikai has 2 forms, his Bankai may have a second ability as well.

To be honest, I don't think either of them are technically "African American". Their not really human, so in a way they don't really have a nationality lol. Thats why I just categorize them as "dark skinned" or something along those lines. But we can both agree that she is awesome regardless :D

[neijiman]

lol I don't blame you dude. Now you know how I felt :D



Yeah their both pretty awesome by their own rights.



Yeah, Komamura showed his Shikai before. All it basically does is summon small parts of his giant Bankai. So if he uses Shikai, and swings his sword, a giant sword will also swing in the same way. Remember he tried to punch Aizen with that gaint fist? That was his Shikai.

And yeah Tosen's Zanpakuto has 2 Shikai commands. The first one "Cry" makes a sound wave that renders the victim unconscious, but it doesn't actually hurt them. Tosen used that to knock out Ishida right after his battle with Mayuri. The other Shikai command "Smash his Limbs" turns the sword into dozens of blades that fly towards the enemy. He used it against Kenpachi. And you have a good point. If his Shikai has 2 forms, his Bankai may have a second ability as well.

To be honest, I don't think either of them are technically "African American". Their not really human, so in a way they don't really have a nationality lol. Thats why I just categorize them as "dark skinned" or something along those lines. But we can both agree that she is awesome regardless :D

i suppose your right. still, even though they both are technically spiritual beings they must have existed as humans at some point ( Komamura being the exception mostly because..well....he's a fox, lol). then again they may have been conceived in the soul society. this is startin to get confusing

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

I have an idea for a discussion since this one has all but died. Notice through out the Manga and Anime that nearly every single enemy that every single person fights has abilities similar to their own. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Byakuya, Grimmjow, Ulquiorra. I can name off other examples as well, Kenpachi and Nnoitra, Szayel Aporro and Mayuri, Toshiro and Halibel. My point is this, if the Vaizards are going to have powers that are similar to those they are fighting right now then we may be able to figure out what those powers are. If we discuss this enough then I think we may be able to come up with a rough version of their Shikai's and Bankai's. We have Starrk and Halibel, The four Vaizards facing them must have powers that will be shut down by the Arrancars power, completely over power the Arrancars power, or have similar abilities to the Arrancars. The powers between every character in Bleach, be it good or bad, they always fall under one of these three categories. Yes, I know that not all have but nearly all have. So, let's discuss this shall we?

[Shaggy]

To give my 2 cents in the discussion that Zack started, I believe that the Vaizards are indeed capable of having that second form or at least have knowledge of its existence. But I believe it would be overkill. I mean these guys were strong as shinigami. Some used to be Captains. If they were to be on par with, lets say Ukitake when they were shinigami (I'm not saying they were, I'm just using him as an example). That would be a bit much, they have a strong shikai, a strong bankai, then they have the hollow mask and the possibility of a second form. Assuming that the second form they have is stronger than Ichigo's i would guess that Halibel and Stark are pretty much screwed. But that's if they do have one. I kind of hope they don't. It would make things less interesting. Like in DBZ. When we first heard of the Super Saiyan legend most of us got interested and then we saw Goku turn into a Super Saiyan and we thought it was cool. Then the Android Saga and the Cell Saga came in and they started multiplying like rabbits. It was pretty much gay...so yeah I hope that at least Shinji has a second form.

I have an idea for a discussion since this one has all but died. Notice through out the Manga and Anime that nearly every single enemy that every single person fights has abilities similar to their own. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Byakuya, Grimmjow, Ulquiorra. I can name off other examples as well, Kenpachi and Nnoitra, Szayel Aporro and Mayuri, Toshiro and Halibel. My point is this, if the Vaizards are going to have powers that are similar to those they are fighting right now then we may be able to figure out what those powers are. If we discuss this enough then I think we may be able to come up with a rough version of their Shikai's and Bankai's. We have Starrk and Halibel, The four Vaizards facing them must have powers that will be shut down by the Arrancars power, completely over power the Arrancars power, or have similar abilities to the Arrancars. The powers between every character in Bleach, be it good or bad, they always fall under one of these three categories. Yes, I know that not all have but nearly all have. So, let's discuss this shall we?

Well right now we can't say anything about the 2 vaizards taking on Stark because he was just toying with Kyouraku and Shinsui. So there's no way of guessing or assuming what their shikais or bankais could be. As for the 2 taking on Halibel I think that the little girl (the vaizards names, besides Shinji, don't stick) has a water based zanpakuto. Can't really say what kind of weapon she would have seeing as we haven't seen her fight. As for the other chick, I really don't know :laugh:. But I don't think that they're going to overpower or completely own them, maybe Halibel will get her ass kicked but I think that it would be a difficult one for them to pull off. I'm trying to not overestimate Stark but I think those 2 vaizards are gonna get their asses handed to them. They're going to contribute alot that will bring about his defeat but I think that Kyouraku is going to be the one to get rid of him in the end.

I just thought of something. Well not right now, I have been thinking about this for a while now. It's going to sound crazy but I'll just say it. What if this fight isn't really happening? I mean it is but what if Aizen, as soon as he arrived in the fake Karakura town he used his bankai. I'm guessing or assuming that his bankai is a stronger form of his shikai. His shikai fools all 5 senses of the body but what if this takes it a step further and makes the illusion a reality? I think that as soon as this "battle" ends. As soon as Stark, WW and Halibel die, he's going to release the illusion and the battle-weary Captains, lieutenants and Vaizards will be staring at Stark, Halibel, Barragen and WW unscratched and ready to kick some ass. Crazy I know but just wanted to put it out there.

[Ulquiorra Cifer]

To give my 2 cents in the discussion that Zack started, I believe that the Vaizards are indeed capable of having that second form or at least have knowledge of its existence. But I believe it would be overkill. I mean these guys were strong as shinigami. Some used to be Captains. If they were to be on par with, lets say Ukitake when they were shinigami (I'm not saying they were, I'm just using him as an example). That would be a bit much, they have a strong shikai, a strong bankai, then they have the hollow mask and the possibility of a second form. Assuming that the second form they have is stronger than Ichigo's i would guess that Halibel and Stark are pretty much screwed. But that's if they do have one. I kind of hope they don't. It would make things less interesting. Like in DBZ. When we first heard of the Super Saiyan legend most of us got interested and then we saw Goku turn into a Super Saiyan and we thought it was cool. Then the Android Saga and the Cell Saga came in and they started multiplying like rabbits. It was pretty much gay...so yeah I hope that at least Shinji has a second form.



Well right now we can't say anything about the 2 vaizards taking on Stark because he was just toying with Kyouraku and Shinsui. So there's no way of guessing or assuming what their shikais or bankais could be. As for the 2 taking on Halibel I think that the little girl (the vaizards names, besides Shinji, don't stick) has a water based zanpakuto. Can't really say what kind of weapon she would have seeing as we haven't seen her fight. As for the other chick, I really don't know :laugh:. But I don't think that they're going to overpower or completely own them, maybe Halibel will get her ass kicked but I think that it would be a difficult one for them to pull off. I'm trying to not overestimate Stark but I think those 2 vaizards are gonna get their asses handed to them. They're going to contribute alot that will bring about his defeat but I think that Kyouraku is going to be the one to get rid of him in the end.

I just thought of something. Well not right now, I have been thinking about this for a while now. It's going to sound crazy but I'll just say it. What if this fight isn't really happening? I mean it is but what if Aizen, as soon as he arrived in the fake Karakura town he used his bankai. I'm guessing or assuming that his bankai is a stronger form of his shikai. His shikai fools all 5 senses of the body but what if this takes it a step further and makes the illusion a reality? I think that as soon as this "battle" ends. As soon as Stark, WW and Halibel die, he's going to release the illusion and the battle-weary Captains, lieutenants and Vaizards will be staring at Stark, Halibel, Barragen and WW unscratched and ready to kick some ass. Crazy I know but just wanted to put it out there.

I've considered that same thing about the illusion. I don't think it will happen because we've seen the full extent of Barragan's power, thus if we were to have to sit through another fight with him in it then people would get board. The same would go for Starrk, Halibel, and WW. As for theVaizard's releases, I think that the girl with the glasses(her name escapes me)will have a water based Zanpakuto. I think that she'll fight Halibel one on one and there water power will be even, leaving the fight to just over all skills with swords and stuff. Rose(I believe that's the blonde dudes name)will fight Starrk one on one, I think his will be a Quincy like bow. It has been introduced with the Quincy but what if there's a Soul Reaper with a bow? I think it would be interestin, especially since it would go well against Starrk's guns if it's a bow like Uryu's.

[Shaggy]

I've considered that same thing about the illusion. I don't think it will happen because we've seen the full extent of Barragan's power, thus if we were to have to sit through another fight with him in it then people would get board. The same would go for Starrk, Halibel, and WW. As for theVaizard's releases, I think that the girl with the glasses(her name escapes me)will have a water based Zanpakuto. I think that she'll fight Halibel one on one and there water power will be even, leaving the fight to just over all skills with swords and stuff. Rose(I believe that's the blonde dudes name)will fight Starrk one on one, I think his will be a Quincy like bow. It has been introduced with the Quincy but what if there's a Soul Reaper with a bow? I think it would be interestin, especially since it would go well against Starrk's guns if it's a bow like Uryu's.

Well it might be true that we have seen the extent of their power but as childish as this may sound, maybe we haven't seen anything at all. I mean Aizen was able to fool everyone about the abilities of his zanpakuto. Why can't he do the same in this situation? If indeed Aizen used his bankai and if its exactly like his shikai just alot more potent and alot more powerful then it should be an easy task for him to accomplish. That's a possibility, Lisa did tell Kyouraku that she would show just how powerful she became. That would certainly be a great way to show him. But I don't think Hiyori and Hitsugaya are going to sit around and watch as Lisa does all the fighting. But like i said, it would be a great way to show her former Captain just how powerful she has become. As for Rose, I'd think he will fight Stark one on one. It would be interesting to see. But what would the other one do? He's laid back but I doubt he's just going to stand around and watch his companions fight to the death. I wonder if he would go off and fight Gin.